Power steering for postwar Mopar

[DonaldSmith]

So, hydraulic steering assist with electrically powered pump.  That would make a conversion easier.  You would need a power steering gearbox or rack-and-pinion, but wouldn't have to mess with pulleys and belts to power the pump.  Food for thought for the guys,  .  

[knuckleharley]

I saw a '91 Toyota MR2 Spyder with the electric power steering in the Pick-N-Pull, but someone had already removed the pump. The car still had electric hydroboost for the brakes.  

My 2011 VW Passat also had electric power steering. I suspect the Jetta does too,although I don't know that for sure. Chances are they would be more plentiful and cheaper than units from MR-2 Toyotas.

[DJ194950]

I saw a '91 Toyota MR2 Spyder with the electric power steering in the Pick-N-Pull, but someone had already removed the pump. The car still had electric hydroboost for the brakes.   If I see one of these again I'll get the pump as it would have only cost $21.  This type of system might become mainstream in the future as automakers find ways to improve fuel economy, but currently these MR2 pumps go for up to $300 on Ebay.   These pumps also work great to add power steering to a tractor.  The Toyota system is speed sensing, in that the ECU of the vehicle provides a signal that reduces the pressure depending upon vehicle speed.  The pump produces the greatest pressure at parking lot speeds and cuts back at freeway speeds.   The default output when the control signal is missing is okay for most steering, but the pressure can be varied by using another device.  The pump is compact so you can tuck it out of sight.

 

I have a computer program that searches the inventory of the local PNP, I hope to see if I can get there first for good stuff like this.  Electric cars have similar systems.

Would be great to see a pic of one of these units with a tape measure laid along side!

Thanks for the heads up to those so inclined.

 

Doug

[fstfish66]

I saw a '91 Toyota MR2 Spyder with the electric power steering in the Pick-N-Pull, but someone had already removed the pump. The car still had electric hydroboost for the brakes.   If I see one of these again I'll get the pump as it would have only cost $21.  This type of system might become mainstream in the future as automakers find ways to improve fuel economy, but currently these MR2 pumps go for up to $300 on Ebay.   These pumps also work great to add power steering to a tractor.  The Toyota system is speed sensing, in that the ECU of the vehicle provides a signal that reduces the pressure depending upon vehicle speed.  The pump produces the greatest pressure at parking lot speeds and cuts back at freeway speeds.   The default output when the control signal is missing is okay for most steering, but the pressure can be varied by using another device.  The pump is compact so you can tuck it out of sight.

 

I have a computer program that searches the inventory of the local PNP, I hope to see if I can get there first for good stuff like this.  Electric cars have similar systems.

a computer program  for a pick a part ???

[Dave72dt]

A lot of salvage yards have searchable inventories, usually for newer cars, trucks.  Few have them for the really old stuff.

[Tim Keith]

The local Pick N Pull has a searchable inventory for their post '70s cars.   

 

I just went to the site and they have replaced the search function with this form that searches multiple self service yards but it does not seem to work.  

 

  http://row52.com/home

[Oldguy48]

Harry's U-Pull-It in Hazleton, PA also has a searchable website.  And unless it's changed recently, even the old stuff is included.

[fstfish66]

Harry's U-Pull-It in Hazleton, PA also has a searchable website.  And unless it's changed recently, even the old stuff is included.

ive been wanting to go to harrys  and see what it really like,,,there is also a harrys in  quarkertown,,,any idea what  is in either ??? ive heard the one up near you has a lot of cars back to the 40s all up in the air easy to get too,,,but all picked thru ??

[Oldguy48]

  40's & 50's stuff is scarce there, but occasionally something will show up.  Last fall there was an early 40's (I think) Buick, a Pilothouse truck and an old Packard too.  I haven't seen it, but allegedly, there is a separate area for the really old stuff.  You can only access that by special permission.  I have not inquired about how to get special permission....

  They have site maps showing where you can find GM, Ford, Mopar, etc.  It seems to be a well run operation, and I've never seen any trouble there.  Seems like most everyone is well behaved, and friendly.  Maybe I was only there on good days.

  There is also a "sister" yard next door, where you can get parts from newer vehicles, but that one won't allow you to wander and find stuff on your own.

  You can search Harry's inventory on-line, but I don't know how often it gets updated.  If you decide to stop in, be warned...the street from Rt. 93 to the yard is terribly rough, and narrow, and a bit confusing when you leave (one way streets). There are some neat old (really old) trucks parked next to the access road.

 

Wayne

[surfsup123]

Hi all, I need any and all info for installing power steering in my business coupe it's titled as a 49 but it looks like a 48 , it has a G.M. 350 B.O. 40 over , I need to know what rack to install, pump, and anything else that may be important. any help out there? The manual steering is killing me need to convert .

[DonaldSmith]

I'll let the guys chime in on a rack, advantages and disadvantages.  Follow my post here for a conventional steering box.  In any case, you have to modify the steering column, also shown in my post.  I'm sure some of the other guys have put in a power steering box, and I'm sure they've modified a steering column.  

 

To start with, I eliminated electric power steering, due to its cost and the requirement that the mechanism has to be in the cabin,  That screws up the steering column and gearshifting shaft.  I was fearful of doing a rack and pinion, since James Douglas, who also had a big DeSoto Suburban, had not found a rack to his liking. So I looked for a conventional power steering gearbox to replace the manual box.  

 

I found somewhere on line that some '70's GM models have a box with a 1-1/4" pinion shaft, like my car.  I settled on a mythical 1970 Pontiac Sahara for the steering gear box and power steering pump.  The gearbox has the bosses on the frame (left) side, and has four bosses.  (The bosses are what you bolt into.)  So I was able to hit three of the four spots with the bolts through the frame.  Lots of fun locating the bolt holes so that the box was at a proper angle to the steering shaft.   

 

The rest of my saga should be instructive, but there are many paths through the dark forest.  If I had to do it all over again, I'd probably cry.  Here's hoping that with my experiences and the contributions from the guys you'll find a sure path through the woods.   

[fstfish66]

  40's & 50's stuff is scarce there, but occasionally something will show up.  Last fall there was an early 40's (I think) Buick, a Pilothouse truck and an old Packard too.  I haven't seen it, but allegedly, there is a separate area for the really old stuff.  You can only access that by special permission.  I have not inquired about how to get special permission....

  They have site maps showing where you can find GM, Ford, Mopar, etc.  It seems to be a well run operation, and I've never seen any trouble there.  Seems like most everyone is well behaved, and friendly.  Maybe I was only there on good days.

  There is also a "sister" yard next door, where you can get parts from newer vehicles, but that one won't allow you to wander and find stuff on your own.

  You can search Harry's inventory on-line, but I don't know how often it gets updated.  If you decide to stop in, be warned...the street from Rt. 93 to the yard is terribly rough, and narrow, and a bit confusing when you leave (one way streets). There are some neat old (really old) trucks parked next to the access road.

 

Wayne

thanks for the info

[Plymouthy Adams]

it is funny but while out and about this evening I happened to get a close look at a Case 500 farm tractor and its very very simple power steering set up...just flat out floored me at the simplicity ....

 

apples and oranges I know...but I think it is unique...

Edited June 15, 2014 by Plymouthy Adams

[Labrauer]

I really don't understand wanting power steering on these cars. Both my 48 plymouths (1 coupe and 1 sedan ) steer just fine without power. If the car steers hard change the king pins and make sure they are greased good. Also check the bushing in the steering column to see if it is worn or needs to be replaced. Both my cars steer with one hand. I often steer them with just the palm of my hand with no problem. Keep the right pressure in the tires will help too. The sedan has the old buis tires and the coupe has radial tires on it and I can't tell the difference in the steering on either.

[Don Coatney]

I really don't understand wanting power steering on these cars. Both my 48 plymouths (1 coupe and 1 sedan ) steer just fine without power. If the car steers hard change the king pins and make sure they are greased good. Also check the bushing in the steering column to see if it is worn or needs to be replaced. Both my cars steer with one hand. I often steer them with just the palm of my hand with no problem. Keep the right pressure in the tires will help too. The sedan has the old buis tires and the coupe has radial tires on it and I can't tell the difference in the steering on either.

I agree they steer great as long as they are moving. Power steering comes into play big time when you have to parallel park or turn the steering wheel from side to side when the car is not moving.

[DonaldSmith]

Shakedown cruise, getting ready for cross country motoring to the DeSoto convention in mid-July:

 

Power steering is wonderful for even normal turns; fantastic for parking.  The car seems to float down the road, but is easily controlled.  There may be some play in the steering;  I'll check it sometime.  But maybe this is normal for the mythical 1970 Pontiac wagon for which the P.S. parts were designed.  I can live with it. 

 

The belt squeaks at full lock.  it's interesting, maneuvering the car while trying to avoid the squeak.  I'll check and tighten the P.S. belt again.   

 

There is a leak where the return hose screws into the gearbox.  If I can't tighten the hose enough, I may have to Permatex the connection or insert a gasket, or replace the hose.  Is there supposed to be an O-ring there?  The high pressure line does not leak.  

 

More noise under the hood, mostly noticed with the hood open.  No surprise.  Later cars have hood insulation.  But I can live with the noise.  Maybe the noise will impress people as it blends with the flathead sounds, as I show off my power steering setup.

[DJ194950]

D.S.,

if that is a GM earlier pump- I doubt that you can get rid of the squeaks?, A squeal  ? at locked turn. Noise you hear is from oil passing the relief valve in the pump. Poor early design relief. Also normal for many early  GM pumps. My 50 Ply. Suburban with a GM pump does it,  a friends 55 Chev. with similar pump does it at turn  lock point, both with earlier GM pumps.

 

Sometimes it takes two clamps of proper size to tighten the rubber return line at the pump to stop a leak.

Assume you used a properly sized medium pressure rubber return line, not some fuel rated type hose (low pressure).

 

Looking very good, great effort!  Enjoy!

 

DJ

[DonaldSmith]

Thanks for the input.  

I'll tighten the belt somewhat and live with the noise.  

I have the specified return line with the fitting at the steering gearbox.  The leak is at the steering gearbox.  I'll work on that. 

So, I'm satisfied with the system.

Being satisfied does not mean we got everything we could get, but that we got enough.  

[DonaldSmith]

Update: minor setback or disaster,depending on the point of view. 

 

Early morning of July 17,2014, I set off for the DeSoto Convention.  About 45 miles out, I smelled burning rubber.  Must be that semitrailer that just passed me.  I'll stop at Mickey D's for some pop.  I'll pop the hood to see how everything is.

 

The main belt was upside down,inside out, and off the pulleys, seriously frayed and cut almost all the way through.  No alternating, but worse, no water pumping.  I had the presence of mind to turn on the pusher fan, and soon the air through the radiator felt cool.  I hope that saved the engine.  I flat-bedded the car home and took another car to the Convention.

 

Back home, I tackled the brackets and belts.  From photos, it looked like the alternator pulley was too far forward, so that the belt was rubbing against one flange of the pulley too much and rubbing against the little fan blades on the alternator.  

 

I rethought the alternator bracket, which lowered the alternator and moved the pivot away from the engine.  So AI went back to the previous adaptation, which used the original bracket nd notched the alternator to fit.

 

 

Then I moved the p.s. pump bracket upwards.  I used the upper of two studs which I had installed in the side of block, and fabricated a clip angle to secure the top of the frame which I had fabricated for the pump.  

 

 

The pump is now installed, waiting for a new belt before final alignment. Photo to follow.

 

 

  

 

     

[DonaldSmith]

Bracket  ( before adding a clip angle to the head bolt visible through the bracket. ) 

 

Edited July 25, 2014 by DonaldSmith

[DonaldSmith]

Pump

 

 

Next time maybe I should shrink the photos.

 

The belt will be here next week, and I can tweak the alignment.  Yes, the belt will cross sunder the water pump pulley without rubbing it.  

[DonaldSmith]

The power steering is sweet, especially maneuvering the car on the driveway and into the garage.  I fixed my pulley alignment problem, and settled a fan issue.  A few oddities remain:

 

The steering squeaks at full turn.  Reportedly, that's a characteristic of the power steering gear box of the era that I used.  I'll live with it.  I'm learning where to stop turning the wheel if I don't want the squeak.  Maybe the next guy attempting this modification can find a later model box.   

 

The steering seems a little loose, not quite like the movies, where the driver is constantly moving the wheel a quarter turn each way while the rear projection shows the cars going straight.  My wheel has a total of 20 degrees of slop.  I rotated the steering shaft and u-joint assembly.  It's all tight.  Also, the pitman arm doesn't move relative to the tie rods, so I know that the bushings on the arm are not sloppy.  The slop is in the steering gear itself.  I don't know if this is another characteristic of a mid-70's GM steering box.  Anyone have experience with this?  Is it normal and I live with it, or should I contact Cardone, the rebuilder?

 

Regardless, I can show off my power steering at car meets.  This year for a change, I can pull into my spot at the Orphan Car Show without difficulty;  but I'll try not to squeak it.

[Don Coatney]

 not quite like the movies, where the driver is constantly moving the wheel a quarter turn each way while the rear projection shows the cars going straight

 

I thought I was one of the few that notice this. Good to see I have company.

[Frank Elder]

Donald I don't know about your steering, but my first car with PS was a 69 New Yorker and the steering was kinda vague....you just kinda pointed it where you wanted to go...not real responsive, more of a non feedback type of power steering.

[Jonathan]

On 4/26/2014 at 5:56 AM, DonaldSmith said:

First, I found on line that mid '70's Mopars had 1-1/4-inch pitman shafts, like my DeSoto has.  I ordered the gear and pump from O'Reilly's on line, but found that that the gear for a '70's Mopar came without a fitting that was made of unobtanium, and the bosses and holes were in the wrong places anyway.  I returned them to the local O'Reilly's,and got next-day availability on the right parts, and without shipping charges.  And the gear had four threaded bosses on the right side, which was the left side.  

 

The gear is Cardone 27-6579, and the pump is 20-6117.  There may be a host of other combinations that would work, but I didn't know how to access some sort of comparison chart.  Sometimes I'm just to timid to pursue matters for fear of making a pest of myself.  

 

I still have some pivoting adjustment at the pump. but since the belt is almost vertical, pivoting might not make much difference.  

 

So this weekend I'll sit around, waiting for the belt and hoses to arrive Monday.  I can clean up the workshop and garage, and do some minor items on the checklist, or maybe sit in the magic chair for a few spells.

 

I have been following your posts. I am trying to put Power Steering on my 1950 Plymouth Dexluxe and ordered the  Cardone 27-6579 you used for your car. However, the pitman shaft on the power steering gearbox is 1 1/4 inches, and my pitman shaft is 1 1/8 inches. Did you run into this problem?  I am thinking I need to return my Cardone 27-6579 and go a different direction, but thought I would check in with you first. 

Edited April 10, 2023 by Jonathan