Engine Swap (?)

[THRobinson]

this part from your earlier post..........I will eBay'ing some of my stuff off... front grill, and 90% of the dash.

 

That's not throwing in the towel... that's simply part of my 'plan'.

 

I love the car, but the grill and dash looks like they were designed with a piece of graph paper. Simply not a fan of it at all. Changing the grill, and smoothing out the dash, putting in round gauges instead and relocating all the buttons/knobs etc.

[Robert Horne]

I bought a Jeep Cherokee XJ for a possible donor  for my next project.

 

The XJ has the 6 cylinder inline HO 190 Hp engine/auto trans, much more than my 80HP flathead..

 

This XJ has been rolled over, but I can still drive it around the property until

 

I start taking it apart.     

[wayfarer]

I bought a Jeep Cherokee XJ for a possible donor  for my next project.

 

The XJ has the 6 cylinder inline HO 190 Hp engine/auto trans, much more than my 80HP flathead..

 

This XJ has been rolled over, but I can still drive it around the property until

 

I start taking it apart.     

That should be a great project. I think that the 4.0 is an excellent engine.

[james curl]

I agree, if I ever re-engine my 48 I am thinking Jeep 4.0 with a T-5.  Should not take much more work than putting a long block Chrysler I/6 in the Plymouth.  I would use a carburetored  engine if I did so that I would not need a computer to run the engine.

[Plymouthy Adams]

James..it should not be that hard to located a Jeep 4.0 with the factory equipped NV3500 tranny...making the donation a lot easier all about...

[james curl]

Isn't the NV 3500 a new process transmission and was it used in some late 80's early 90's Chevy pick ups?

[Plymouthy Adams]

No, from  what I have read,  the NV3500 was a joint venture between Mopar and GM as Mopar put the idle Muncie tranny plant back into production and people back to work..Mopar innovation and capital and GM floor idle floor space...the 3500 series is for smaller engine/vehicle applications..they build a great number of tranny for variety of vehicles.

Edited August 2, 2013 by Plymouthy Adams

[greg g]

Isn't the Jeep engine 31 inches long???  How are ou going to accommodate the extra length.  Firewall mods seem inevitable.

[Plymouthy Adams]

I had no desire for an inline and also knew the length would be a factor, I used in my creation the newer 3.7  PowerTech V6, the first non LA based direct replacement for the  second generation Magnum complete with mounted NV3500 tranny. 

[james curl]

I think one could move the radiator far enough forward to squeeze it in.  I have done preliminary  measurements  and I think it can be done.  I have measured an early 318 that is in a 32 Plymouth and it is that long as it has a long water pump.  The owner is looking for a 360 and tried to sell it to me, too much money.  I have looked at the late model 318 with the serpentine belt and it is some shorter than the early 318.

[Plymouthy Adams]

James..the very V6 I speak of is still rather long in the snout with the accessories and such..with the thermal clutch fan assembly and also used the stock puller electric auxillary fan, movement of the rad was still require forward of the support.  My engine I also snugged fairly close to the fire wall..I could have moved another 1 inch rearward but would not have been able to keep the radiator in stock position.

[JamesF]

Hi,

I have a 218 in a 49 2dr sedan that I am going to try to rebuild. I know practically nothing but the local club has several very knowledgable members that are willing to help as much as I need them to. A rebuild kit costs $1200.00 and the machine shop estimates $900.00 to $1000.00. I don't see how I can get out for less than $3000 considering the incidentals that you know will pop up.

I also have a 230 engine in unknown condition, and I may build that up instead. I lucked onto a BW R-10 overdrive transmission for a $50.00 bill that I plan to put in the car as well. I really like the sixes and wouldn't put anything else in it

JamesF

[greg g]

If you are going to rebuild, and are not going for Plymouth Owners club judging points, build the 230, it a much more flexible engine and will work that much better with the OD.  Keep thinking 6 Briggs and Stratton's in a row.  The two tricky parts the valve guides are the same for both intake and exhaust but are installed other end up for one, and I can;t remember which right now, and the connecting rods are offset and should be kept in pairs with the cylinders they go to.  Keep a sharpie around and take lots of pictures of the tear down.  And as long as you are having machine work done, thing about raising the compression by milling the head.  It usually only cost about 30 to 60 bucks, and most of the charge is for setting the head up in the machine, so .010 off to assure a true surface will cost about the same as .060 for a decent CR bump.

[JamesF]

Greg

Thanks for the advice. I notice that some shave the block more than is required for a true surface also.

James

[james curl]

On a 65 year old engine I would think all mating surfaces might be suspect.  When I did my engine in 2007 I had the machine shop surface all mating surfaced for straightness, Was having the mains re-sized and line bored to assure that the crank was inline and parallel with the bores. If you can find a machine shop that can electronically balance the rotating mass you will have a smoother running engine.  It usually cost at least $100.00 or more extra to have it done, but I think you would find it worthwhile in you are going to drive great distances.  The 230 will give you more bang for the buck and the rebuild cost is the same.

[Don Coatney]

I also suggest you not buy a kit but let the mchins shop supply the pistons and bearings as they will meauure and  know the correct sizes. Also a good idea to have them fit the piston rings as they have the correct euipment to set the ring end gap. You also might consider using Chevy valves as they cost less and are easy to find.

[GlennCraven]

Being such an older car, are there any easy/direct swaps with current (1990 and up) engines? Or would anything/everything need custom motor mounts and possibly firewall modifications?

 

Just on the off-chance the engine is deceased, or, if eventually I decide it's not powerful enough. I'm not expecting a lot of power from an older car but, like to research my options ahead of time.

 

I recently purchased a 1949 Chrysler Windsor minus drivetrain. I gave a lot of thought to finding a flathead, Fluid Drive, etc., and restoring to a factory setup. That's certainly a possible thing to do, but it isn't necessarily easy (though I have an appreciation for Pflaming's comments about sticking with what Detroit designed) and it's certainly not particularly cheap.

 

I'm going with a 360 small block and 727 Torqueflite I picked up for a good price. I've ordered an LA-series Mopar small block swap kit for $299 from Butch's Cool Stuff that should be here in a few days. It includes prefabbed motor mounts offset to clear factory steering, a custom offset transmission crossmember, all associated rubber and small components, and an instruction sheet.

 

There will be plenty of other concerns, including but not limited to the 12-volt switchover, shifter linkage, transmission kickdown cable, and getting the brakes right (and upgrading to discs, hopefully sooner rather than later). But I figured this was a faster and less expensive way to get me driving than if I kept searching for the right running or rebuildable 251 or 265 flat six.

 

Whatever route you go, I wish you much luck and enjoyment.

Edited August 3, 2013 by GlennCraven

[james curl]

Cam bearings and valve guides should be installed by the machine shop as should the piston pin bushings in the rods as they must be reamed to size after installation by interference fit for the correct clearance.

[Robert Horne]

Isn't the Jeep engine 31 inches long???  How are ou going to accommodate the extra length.  Firewall mods seem inevitable.

I did some basic measurements.       If I remove the clutch/fan, move my radiator forward, and use a push electric fan,

 

I should have enough room to use the Jeep engine.

[knuckleharley]

Ya, been factoring that in as well... old engine may cost a lot in terms of finding parts and such, but same same time, swap means finding the space and cost of tools/rental.

 

But like I said, few parts (ie gas tank) won't be hooked up because of corrosion so, gotta find a how-to for firing it up without setting it on fire.

 

I was into Harley's for years,and only got back into working on cars when I got too crippled up to ride anymore. I am not exaggerating when I tell you I could have probably had two cars pro-built for what it cost me to buy all the tools I need and to put up a 35x50 workshop.

 

I live in a rural area and even the pros around here do xxxt work,so I was forced to buy things like a plasma cutter,mig welder,pressure pot and compressor for sandblasting outside,inside sandblast cabinet,car hoist,and a long,long list of other specailized tools. Seems like there may be no end to the different types of pullers you might need,for one example. In my case it is either buy them,or stop what I am doing to make a 60 mile round trip to rent them. IF they have the one I need once I get there.

 

PLEASE note that I am NOT complaining about this. Truth to tell,I'm not. I'm happy to finally be in a position where I've been able to do that instead of trying to get by using the wrong tools and in some cases making a tool to do a one-time job. What I am doing is warning you about the massive amount of money you are going to have to spend,not to mention the time spent at night classes to learn welding,machining,and other fabrication skills,if you decide to go the frame swap,modern engine and drivetrain swap.

 

I had a edge on you because I grew up working on cars and had even worked in garages as a mechanic when I was younger a long time ago. I was doing other things for a living,and all my tools got stolen while in storage,so that's why I basically had to start over buying tools.

 

MY recommendation is to start out modestly,and just try to fix what you already have,rather than have to modify and fix something else before you can even start modifying your car to use it. If I had to buy hand tools all over again,I think I would just go to a Sears store and buy their biggest hand tool kit for a few hundred dollars. Everything is all nicely boxed up and it's easy to see what you have and if anything gets lost. Plus,you can't beat the prices.

 

For more sophisticated tools,start haunting local pawn shops. When I first started getting back into it I bought a 10 drawer MAC top chest full of Mac and Snap-Off tools for 250 bucks at a pawshop. The empty box sells for more than twice that much new,plus it had line wrenches,air rathets,impacts,crows feet wrenches,and all sorts of other nice tools to have in it.

 

Buy a good quality 3/8ths and half-inch drill. Forget the cheap Chinese junk. Buy good ones.  I strongly recommend you spend the bucks to buy a good 3/8ths right angle drill because you can use it in places you don't have room to use a regular drill.

 

By the time you buy all the hand tools you need,a 3 ton floor jack at least 4-5 inches wide,GOOD jackstands,and a small sandblast cabinet (northern tool sells a really nice plastic one cheap that is (barely) big enough to sand blast engine parts and wheels in,,a grinder on a pedestal stand for grinding and wire wheel use,and a good selection of vise grip style clamping pliers,and a air-compressor big enough to run air tools,you are probably looking at having spent a little over a grand with careful shopping. Do NOT cut corners on your power tools. Rather than buy Chinese junk,spend the same amount to buy used American or Japanese power tools. Cheaper in the long run because if you do live long enough one needs repair,you can buy the parts and repair it. If your budget gets tight,look around for a used Sears 3 to 5 hp compressor with a 30 gallon tank. Not really big enough for a half-inch impact,but it will marginally handle 3-8ths ratchets and if you take your time by giving the compressor lots of breaks,your sand blast cabinet. Chances are later on you can get all your money back when you sell it to somebody else if you bought it used.

 

If you really get into working on your cars and other things,you will ideally want a 230v two stage compressor with a 5 to 7 hp motor and a 60 gallon or larger tank. Once again,buy quality instead of junk. I bought a Quincy,made in Quincy,Illinois,and it was only about 300 bucks more than a comparable-sized single stage "box store" compressor they call "industrial quality". The difference is the Quincy is made in America,and the pump is rated at 10,000 hours of use before needing a rebuild. IIRC,this is about 10 times as many hours as the Home Depot and Lowes brand. It also puts out a much higher volume of air,and you can run air files,sandblast pots,or anything else you want to run with it and it will keep up.

 

If you want to get serious about it,enroll in your local community college for night classes in auto repair,body work and paint,machine shop,and welding. At a minimum take a welding class because it's really hard to get by without at least using a torch to heat things up or to braze or weld something together. Once again,either go to SEARS or haunt pawn shops looking for a good used oxygen acetelyne setup. Look at the Sears torch body before buying so you know what size to look for. You won't be cutting steel out of the bottom of a tug boat or a Navy cruiser. You will be doing light duty work.

 

As for a temporary gas tank,it's hard to beat a gas tank for a outboard engine.  Especially if you are fooling around trying to start a old car with a questionable fuel pump,gas tank,or gas lines. Once again,look around for a used one.

 

Don't let all this scare you. You really can buy all the basic tools you need to get started including the jack and the jack stands for a little over 500 bucks. You can add the other stuff as you need it.

 

I do have one other bit of advise when it comes to stuff like frame clips. Even if you do take welding classes and learn how to weld,DO NOT do the final welding on any structural part of your chassis or suspension! Tack it together and hire a pro to do the final welding. It won't cost that much,if you have already done the fabbing and tack welding,and it will be some of the best money you ever spent.

[knuckleharley]

Which part were you reading?

 

As mentioned a few times...I'm simply researching all angles before I start. I don't want to start in one direction and find out later I shoulda zigged when I zagged.

You can never go wrong rebuilding and putting a flat 6 in it because it's the cheapest and easiest thing to do and the quickest way to get to driving your car.

 

If you decide later on you want disc brakes,a v-8 engine,or anything else,you can add that stuff later.

 

No,you won't be able to sell your (now used) inline 6 for what you paid to rebuild it,but you will have used it to drive and enjoy your car while you were learning,and that's worth something.

Edited August 3, 2013 by knuckleharley

[james curl]

KnuckleHarley advised buying American made tools but it is getting harder each day.  I just bought a Milwaukee 3/8 right angle drill, guess what, it's made in Mexico.  Sears is now selling DeWalt hand tools in plastic cases.  They have a very nice 204 piece set for $299.00 in a case that looks real good.  No guaranty that they are not made in China as DeWalt is owned by Stanley Tools.  At one time all Stanley tools were made in the USA but not anymore.  They made Craftsman tools up untill the mid 80's, Husky until they sold the name to Home Depot.  They still make Proto, Blackhawk, and Mac Professional tools.

[YukonJack]

KnuckleHarley advised buying American made tools but it is getting harder each day.  I just bought a Milwaukee 3/8 right angle drill, guess what, it's made in Mexico.  Sears is now selling DeWalt hand tools in plastic cases.  They have a very nice 204 piece set for $299.00 in a case that looks real good.  No guaranty that they are not made in China as DeWalt is owned by Stanley Tools.  At one time all Stanley tools were made in the USA but not anymore.  They made Craftsman tools up untill the mid 80's, Husky until they sold the name to Home Depot.  They still make Proto, Blackhawk, and Mac Professional tools.

Whats going on with that? Sears only sold Craftsman tools. Now Ace Hardware sells Craftsman also, and not just hand tools. Mowers and snow blowers too.

[Plymouthy Adams]

expanding the retail market to the consumer..I would rarely find myself near a Sears store on the average run to town, they are located in the mall and well,  I have no need to experience mall shopping...they have Craftsman tool also at the base exchange

[Scruffy49]

When Kmart bought Sears, the tool lines went overseas. It may say Made in USA, but the tooling change is only pennies per item... I've hauled many an import load shipping container of "electronic items" that the outer box showed fans of some kind, labelled Made in China, that when opened said Harley Davidson, Made in USA... ACE Hardware's green ladders labelled Made in USA come in from China with the labels already on them.

 

Trust nothing from the big box stores, they are all "pulling a Walmart" on you...

 

American made tools? Cornwall...

 

And, if your L6 will run okay, keep it, otherwise, find a Mirada or same series similar Mopar from the 70s and 80s, order Tex Smith's book "How to Build Hot Rod Trucks", and follow the first tech story, putting a Mirada front clip, power train, rear axle, seats, column, etc in a Pilot House. Shows just how tricky it is... But, you'll have everything needed (and then some) to swap the running gear into your car.

Edited August 3, 2013 by Scruffy49