1949 Chrysler Windsor

[GlennCraven]

Hi, forum. I joined because a 1949 Chrysler Windsor coupe is for sale in my town, and she seems worthy of restoring, customizing, rodding ... something.

 

Trouble is, the current owner who intended a stock restoration junked the Spitfire Six when he and a local engine shop deemed it irreparable and he sent the Fluid Drive transmission to salvage because he discovered it wouldn't bolt to a donor flathead from a '50 Plymouth three-speed.

 

So now the car is an otherwise mostly complete, semi-solid roller. I'm trying to determine the availability of Spitfire Sixes and Fluid Drives, because this guy says that engine is impossible to find, hence his dumping the transmission and selling the would-be donor Plymouth.

 

He touted a 350 Chevy swap, even went so far as to say he'd done the measurements and the body would drop straight onto an S-10 frame if I wanted to go that route.

 

If I were to buy the car and determine that a non-stock driveline is the desired option, I'd definitely want to devise a Mopar solution.

 

At other forums I was told this was the place to find Mopar flathead experts to explore the flathead feasibility.

 

Below is the picture he's advertised the car with.

 

I have a few more pictures at this link to Photobucket.

 

Thanks for any advice offered!

Edited May 2, 2013 by GlennCraven

[Don Coatney]

The most important queation is what do you want to do with the car?

[Adam H P15 D30]

As Don says, make a plan and stick to it.  Unless the the origional frame is completly rotten or bent or????  That car will not "drop" onto anly late model frame without MAJOR work and floor mods. 

Edited May 2, 2013 by Adam H P15 D30

[GlennCraven]

The most important queation is what do you want to do with the car?

 

Priority 1: Have fun.

 

And thanks for asking.

 

I like all sorts of old cars ... bone-stock, hot rods, customs. I have a wide range of appreciation for vehicles of all kinds, though the more unique, low-production, sometimes even "ugly" in the eyes of others, the better.

 

The end result should be a car I can use as a sunny-day driver, but also wouldn't fear taking on a cruising vacation cross-country. I could live without air conditioning, but if I went the custom/V8 route particularly would consider eventually adding a Vintage Air system, etc.  And I'd rather get it driving much sooner than later, so I can partake at least a little bit in Priority 1 while I work on the rest of the car.

 

A drivetrain change would include engine, transmission, rear axle, probably upgraded brakes, a 12-volt update -- it's a lot, I know. But if locating a Spitfire Six and Fluid Drive would be like finding Sasquatch, then assembling a "new" drivetrain could be the fastest route to Route 66 (which isn't far at all for me), and I'd be just fine with that.

 

P.S. Existing frame isn't bent nor apparently rusty, so I really don't have any intention of going that far.

Edited May 2, 2013 by GlennCraven

[Don Coatney]

Where have you looked for an engine/fluid drive combo? What is your price range?

[GlennCraven]

Where have you looked for an engine/fluid drive combo? What is your price range?

 

I just checked car-part.com and there's one salvage yard listing a core/rebuildable 1952 Chrysler Spitfire Six. Called for the price and it was $1,000. They don't have a compatible transmission and a search of that site didn't seem to unearth any, either.

 

I honestly have no idea if the '52 engine would be a drop-in solution, and still wouldn't have a transmission even if it is. Kanter seems to sell a deluxe overhaul kit for about $1,350. ... So that's $2,350 plus the noteworthy cost of shipping an engine block. ... Plus whatever a trans would cost me.

 

Non-Spitfire sixes might readily go into the car and mate up to their appropriate, matching transmissions, so that could be an option. I'm not sure how much cost savings they might be over a Spitfire, or how much performance I might lose.

 

Conversely, from Hot Rod and Popular Hot Rodding magazines (and with aid of mechanical-genius uncles) I can probably build a pretty stout 318 with mostly stock and even salvage Mopar parts for around $1,500. Plus transmission. Plus rear end. Plus potentially some serious welding/fabrication ... so I really would need to bend the ear of anyone who has done a V8-into-Windsor swap before!

 

On the price range question, the less the better, of course. Price being roughly equal (and it may be considering the added costs involved with a swap) I'd go with the Spitfire Six/Fluid Drive.

 

But I'd like to quickly determine the likely range of both options -- near-original vs. V8 swap -- to get an idea of the budget damage before even making an offer on the Windsor itself. (He wants $1,500 but I'm thinking would take less.)

Edited May 2, 2013 by GlennCraven

[Young Ed]

How about finding a flathead for it and putting a 5spd in it? Or a modern automatic?

[GlennCraven]

How about finding a flathead for it and putting a 5spd in it? Or a modern automatic?

 

The seller is no expert, but he was confused by the array of available flathead/trans options through the years. He gave me the impression if the transmission didn't go with that type of engine originally, they were all but impossible to mate.

 

I don't really want to cut a hole in the floor and I do want to retain the factory column shifter if possible, because that whole steering wheel/instrument panel/controls combination looks retro-fantastic.

 

You're the folks who would know, but would an non-Spitfire flathead mate to a more modern Chrysler automatic? Via adapter? Any transmission tunnel or driveshaft mods necessary? ... I presume the factory rear end would be OK because it would be flathead-six power, not 318 or something that would require different gearing.

[Young Ed]

There are some quirks but its not that hard to find a trans and flathead combo. For instance I have a 52 plymouth car engine in my 46 dodge 1/2 ton pickup. Adaptors to modern automatics are readily available.

[JerseyHarold]

Flathead sixes aren't overly hard to find.  I've seen them crop-up on Craigslist many times.  They were also used in non-automotive applications like fork lifts, airport tugs, and agricultural implements.   You should be able to turn one up.

[GlennCraven]

There are some quirks but its not that hard to find a trans and flathead combo. For instance I have a 52 plymouth car engine in my 46 dodge 1/2 ton pickup. Adaptors to modern automatics are readily available.

 

 

So ... are any of the modern transmissions an easier fit? ... I presume for a flat six a lighter-duty 904 would be enough. I see from some Googling that an overdrive A500 has been used with old flatheads, too. That would help stretch the car's legs a bit for a highway drive.

[james curl]

Don Coatney has a De Soto Flathead I/6 in his Plymouth with a BW T-5 speed transmission and he drives it all over the country.  Wilcap makes adapters for MoPar flathead engines that take any of GM's automatic transmissions.  Check your local Gleaner Combine dealer as the older Gleaners used the larger Chrysler industrial engines and he might be able to help you find one.  It should almost be a drop in except for the engine mounts and they might even work.  You want the big block engine which is longer than the small block engines used in the Plymouth and Dodges.  You can use the bell housing and transmission from a straight drive Plymouth or a fluid drive and bell housing with transmission from a Dodge behind the large engine.  Hope you can find something that suits your needs.  These are great old cars and can be driven daily without any problems with the addition of disc brakes.  There are many posts here on the forum about all of these different modifications, but it will take patience to search them out.

[Don Coatney]

The only thing special about a Spitfire engine is the head has Spitfire cast into it. No difference in horsepower from a non Spitfire engine. Also the Spitfire was a Crashler only thing here in the states. Canadian Mopars are all long blocks and some may have the Sptifire logo. As my good friend James Curl mentioned I have a long 25" Desoto engine installed in my 48 Plymouth. I have dual carbs, dual point distributor, dual exhaust, a lumpy cam, shiverlay valves, and more. My engine is as dependable as the day is long.

 

I do suggest you quit reading the hot rod magazines as they only exist to sell parts for the folks who advertise in there publications and there opinion is always slanted and not always accurate.

 

As the car you have came with a 25" block you can not only search for an engine here in the states but you can also look north to Canada. Also check the parts for sale section of this webpage.

[greg g]

You can also plumb the depths of agricultural parts sources as the Chrysler engine found it way into many agricultural applications, pumps, compressors, and harvest equipment. Massey Harris Combines used mopar flathenad in both the 23 inch Dodge and Plymouth, and the 25 inch chrylser desoto. They are also found in airport ground support equipment like tugs, baggage conveyors and APU Units. You can also get an adapter to put later Torqueflight transmissions behind the engine. They were equiped with early powerflights and torqueflights in cars till 59 and pickup trucks later than that. Lots of military sources for engines also.

[jsturner]

That steering wheel is in the best shape I've seen outside of a museum. Jealous.

I have a C38 ('46-'48) engine you can have for $100 if you pick it up here in central ohio. I recently disassembled it with intentions of rebuilding it but ended up rebuilding a different engine instead. It was rebuilt in the '80s and I have the invoice from the machine shop. It shows little evidence of wear since being rebuilt and I was told the car was parked shortly after the rebuild. The cylinders are 0.040 over and the crank journals are a little undersize as well; I forget how much. This engine was originally in a '47 Chrysler with fluid drive. There is a pit in one of the cylinder walls; either a casting flaw or corrosion from sitting. Comes with two heads. PM me if you're interested.

These engines and the fluid drive transmissions periodically turn up on eBay as well.

Edited May 2, 2013 by jsturner

[GlennCraven]

That steering wheel is in the best shape I've seen outside of a museum. Jealous.

I have a C38 ('46-'48) engine you can have for $100 if you pick it up here in central ohio.

 

Yes, the wheel and the gauges are beautiful. They are what really have a hold on me about this car.

 

These and all the other comments since my last post are both informative and some fantastic news.

 

I checked Craigslist for four states around and found a handful of running cars with Mopar flatheads, plus a couple of rusty old flathead trucks priced at $1,000 and up, but it would be a shame to rob them of their hearts. I found a 1938 flathead from a Dodge pickup, plus a lot of other parts (he apparently went with new running gear and rodded the truck) for $900. Also a guy who has a slew of old car parts -- none of them Mopar flatheads -- but who *thinks* his buddy would sell running a 1928 Victory Six from an eight-years-abandoned project. He's going to check on the price (if it's available) and I'll post it here in case anybody wants it!

 

Of some note, for $1,000 there was a reportedly good-condition 1947 Chrysler marine flathead pretty nearby in Missouri. Some fella planned to put it in his big lake boat but changed his mind. Are the marine flatheads pretty similar to all the others?

 

This local Windsor actually has the original Spitfire head still in the trunk, along with the air cleaner and a couple of other extra/spare parts the seller picked up along the way.

[Ester Eddie]

Another 49 Windsor Awesome .Best of luck if you end up buying it.

[Raceandoval]

Very cool find! Like to see more 49's surfacing here.

[PatS....]

Gotta love those 49's!!!

[GlennCraven]

So there's presently a Fluid Drive transmission on eBay from a 1953 DeSoto Firedome, $350 in Albert Lea, Minn.

 

P.S. Also a month-old Craigslist ad in my general region with a Fluid Drive and a small-block flathead among a $300 lot of parts scavenged from a 1952 Dodge truck that's becoming a street rod. (Long enough ago that might not still be available.)

 

What are the odds one of those transmissions would work or could easily be made to work with the '46-'48 vintage C38 flathead Joe has in Ohio?

Edited May 3, 2013 by GlennCraven

[martybose]

Watch out for marine engines; a lot of them were raw water cooled and got salt water circulated through them, which tends to make the water jackets really thin and not suitable for rebuilding!

 

Marty

[Merle Coggins]

The '52 Dodge truck is most likely a Fluid Drive with standard 3 speed or 4 speed, not the semi-auto M6 transmission you are looking for. If it's a truck 4 speed for Fluid Drive I'd be interested in it though.

 

Merle

[GlennCraven]

The '52 Dodge truck is most likely a Fluid Drive with standard 3 speed or 4 speed, not the semi-auto M6 transmission you are looking for. If it's a truck 4 speed for Fluid Drive I'd be interested in it though.

 

Merle

 

Here's the link to that month-old Craiglist ad if you want to check on it.

[knuckleharley]

I don't really want to cut a hole in the floor and I do want to retain the factory column shifter if possible, because that whole steering wheel/instrument panel/controls combination looks retro-fantastic.

 

You're the folks who would know, but would an non-Spitfire flathead mate to a more modern Chrysler automatic? Via adapter? Any transmission tunnel or driveshaft mods necessary? ... I presume the factory rear end would be OK because it would be flathead-six power, not 318 or something that would require different gearing.

I'm with ya on the dash. I have a 49 Windsor,and the dash is nothing short of beautiful. Even the original dash pad is in good condtion on mine

 

As for the Fluid Drive trans,I have one I would give you from a 55 DeSoto hemi if you can use it. You couldn't sell a fluid drive trans to most people if you pointed a gun at them. Nobody wants a 2 speed automatic.

 

The body on your car is really nice and since you don't care about restoring,if it were me I'd put a used 318 and 904 automatic in it and go driving. No need to change the rear as far as strength goes because you won't be spinning both rear tires under 400 hp.  You're just be driving it. When you get the cash later on buy the rear differential from a Cherokee or late model Ford SUV and bolt that in if you want a higher gearing for better gas mileage. That will also solve your missing emergency brake problem because the new rear will be set up for an emergency brake.

 

Used 318's are really cheap,and so are used 904's.  I bought a whole Aspen stationwagon that was rusty and beat up ,but ran and shifted real good for 250 bucks. Got damn near that much out of the body at the crusher after I pulled the engine,transmission,and rear end.

 

As for rebuilding them,if they ain't broke there is no reason to "fix" them by rebuilding them if all you want is a weekend car for local driving. Buy a good used 318 and 904 and put them in. Who cares if it burns a little oil? You will be back on the road and you can always put rings and bearing in it later if you decide you want to do long cruises with it.

 

Start checking your local newspapers and Craig's list for a whole donor car with a 318 or 360 and 904 auto in it. Besides the engine,trans,and rear,there are a whole bunch of other parts you might be able to use like battery cables,shift linkages,emergency brake cables,radiator,etc,etc,etc.

[GlennCraven]

As for the Fluid Drive trans, I have one I would give you from a 55 DeSoto hemi if you can use it. You couldn't sell a fluid drive trans to most people if you pointed a gun at them. Nobody wants a 2 speed automatic.

 

The body on your car is really nice and since you don't care about restoring, if it were me I'd put a used 318 and 904 automatic in it and go driving. No need to change the rear as far as strength goes because you won't be spinning both rear tires under 400 hp.  You're just be driving it. When you get the cash later on buy the rear differential from a Cherokee or late model Ford SUV and bolt that in if you want a higher gearing for better gas mileage. That will also solve your missing emergency brake problem because the new rear will be set up for an emergency brake.

 

Used 318's are really cheap,and so are used 904's.  I bought a whole Aspen stationwagon that was rusty and beat up ,but ran and shifted real good for 250 bucks. Got damn near that much out of the body at the crusher after I pulled the engine,transmission,and rear end.

 

Another kind offer (the DeSoto Fluid Drive) and sage advice.

 

We've really seemed to sum-up my two favored options in this thread, and neither seems unreasonable. A flathead and Fluid Drive (or later-model transmission) isn't an elusive solution, and as you note 318/auto donor vehicles are everywhere. In fact, two days after I viewed this Windsor I was passing through another town and saw an Aspen wagon beside a trailer house with high weeds and thought, "Wonder if that's a six or a V8!"

 

The 318 or even a 360 route would obviously offer a lot more power, not just for cruising at highway speeds, but for adding that Vintage Air later if I chose.

 

How much welding and fabrication would be involved in the 318/auto solution? I've read threads at other message boards where fellas argue over this point. One guy said to never use the 318, only a 360 or bigger. (What's he building, a gasser?) From his own swap he said the mill would have to be set back three inches into the firewall for proper balance due to its weight and special gussets welded to install different shocks. He said special motor mounts were needed, a rack and pinion from a Chevy Cavalier, you'd even need a 1969 Chevy tilt steering wheel. Plus a rear sump oil pan.

 

"I have done this so believe me, you have to do this or your car will not be worth driving," he wrote.

 

Then another guy arrived to contradict most of that.

 

"The stock 251 weighs in at around 650 LBS, quite a bit more than a 360 so there should be no weight transfer problems due to the swap and no need to knock your firewall back either. Just get the Plydo engine relocation mounts and move it over an inch. If you go with stock exhaust use 360 truck center dumps or A-body forward dump to clear the stock steering box."

 

That sounds WAY easier.

 

So who is closer to right? 

 

Also, Harley, where in North Carolina do you reside? I moved back to Oklahoma/Kansas in 2011 after living in Henderson, N.C., since 1998.

Edited July 6, 2013 by GlennCraven