1942 brake job/axle bearings/seals

[jcmiller]

I have my rear brakes disassembled and the axles out. Should I replace the inner seals as a matter of course? The car has been sitting for at least 7 years but I otherwise have no other reason to suspect there is something wrong with them. Is there a way to tell by looking at them if they are still good? I know it's not a difficult job but it means renting a puller, finding new seals, and finding something to drive them in with. I'd like to avoid that if I can determine if they are still good. On the other hand, now is the time to do it. I sure don't want to have to tear everything down again because of a leaky inner seal.

The seals partly cover the lubrication hole in the axle housing, as shown in the photo. Is that normal, or perhaps an indication that the wrong seals have been installed or they are not fully seated?

Finally, the end of the axle shaft has some discoloration and corrosion, as shown. Should I be concerned about that?

Thanks.

[Plymouthy Adams]

as for your time and labor do it now while you have the item disassembled..check the main page of the forum to see if the correct seal numbers are listed..

[greg g]

You can polish off the crud, but I do not thik there is any contact with anything but the brake drum hub, which rotates with the assembly anyway so it not a wear surface. The bearing should be packed before installing. the hole if its the one I'm thinking of alligns with a plug (not a zerk) in the axle housing. This it to alow addig grease by thumbing it into the hole. (as in no pressure from a grease gun as it would push past the bearing seal) It looks like the seal was not installed deep eough or perhaps another seal has a coresponding notch. I've never been into one so just speculating. But since the bearing is preloaded again it is not a big issue. The seal is actually more important in keeping the liquid diffy lube out of the bearing backingplate area than keeping the grease in.

[TodFitch]

as for your time and labor do it now while you have the item disassembled..check the main page of the forum to see if the correct seal numbers are listed..

The inner seal, "Axle Drive Shaft Oil Seal Assembly" part 651678 is the same from 1936 through the early P15 era (P15s after various assembly plant serial numbers use part 1139898). The other exception is some of the long wheel base 7 passenger/limos.

Anyway, part 651678 should cross to either Chicago Rawhide 13892 or NAPA NOS 13797.

Gory details at http://www.ply33.com/Parts/group3#3-35-14

[jcmiller]

Thanks guys. That's a handy website Tod, although the picture on the NAPA website of that part # does not look right. I suspect they have a generic picture for all their seals though. (Or maybe the ones on my car are the ones that don't look right.) Looks like I might have to visit a NAPA store again even though last weekend they couldn't find any information on brakes for Plymouths older than 1963.

[austinsailor]

NAPA has a lot of parts, they have few listings. If you can find the numbers they can often get the parts. Irritates me that I have to do the work but they make the money.

[jcmiller]

I decided to replace the seals. I was able to order them from Hagen's in Puyallup, WA, along with new hoses and kits for the master cylinders. They are also going to resleeve all the wheel cylinders and the master cylinder. It'll be the first big check I have to write for this car.

I got the rear drums and backing plates back from the sand blaster and painted them with VHT caliper paint and then baked them. They look pretty nice compared to how they started. A local shop will now turn them and arc the brake shoes to match.

I'm getting ready to do the same for the front drums and plates but there are more complications with that. The bearings and races look fine so I don't want to remove the races to accomodate sand blasting. From reading some other threads on this forum, it sounds like the races can easily break and there is a good chance of not being able to remove and then reinstall. On the other hand, I don't want to leave them on and have them damaged during sandblasting. I can tape over the ends of the hub but it seems likely that grit will find its way inside. Regarding the backing plates, the front ones have dust seals riveted to them that might get damaged in blasting, painting, baking.

Any thoughts on whether the hard lines should be replaced as a matter of course? They look pretty crusty on the outside and who knows what the inside looks like. I kind of hate to add it to the list, but with only a single reservoir MC, I feel like I probably should.

[deathbound]

Looking good, Jeff. For what new hard lines cost, it's cheap insurance for a complete brake job. You can buy straight pieces & use your old ones as a pattern. You may have to purchase a couple pieces & use a fitting to join the 2 for the long rear line, also, cut to length & double flare a few ends. It's also a good idea if you plan on using DOT5 brake fluid, unless you thoroughly flush the old lines. Does POR15 have a paint that doesn't require baking & still resist brake fluid......may be an option for the front & also, avoid sandblasting.

[RobertKB]

For brake drums take them to the local car wash and power wash them. Gets all the old grease out of the front drums, removes all lose dirt on the outside, and does not damage the races. Just make sure you dry the races quickly after washing to avoid any rust film. Use a decent primer and then a couple of coats of Rustoleum/Tremclad flat or satin black using spray bombs. Gloss black does not dissipate the heat as quickly. I did that to some brake drums 30 years ago and they are still black.

If you really want to get the front drums grease free, after washing them use some varsol to remove any lingering film of grease. Also, be prepared to get wet as the drums will throw water everywhere.........but cheap and quick.

Edited August 19, 2012 by RobertKB

[moparbenny]

hi there:) i'm benny..i live in washington. hagan's prices are a little bit high..on his web site he'll give you the part number you need..if you copy and paste the part # on put it in a o'really's or napa search engine..you find the same part number for lower the price..and for brake work , Brake and Clutch Supply, they been around for ever they have a Tacoma, Seattle,& Everett location..and they would might do the work for less..i got a feeling that hagan might be farming out the work..and charging more...

http://brakeandclutchsupply.com/index.shtml

[jcmiller]

I'll let you know how I feel about Hagen's after I get the cylinders back. I checked a bunch of places and they were the least expensive and always had a person to talk to on the phone. The cost for the wheel cylinders is half what White Post wanted, although White Post has a lifetime guarantee and paints them. As far as the parts go, my local NAPA insists that it cannot find any information for cars before 1963. I know that's BS but I'd rather get the right parts from Hagen's than spend my precious spare time trying to find a parts store that knows how to find parts for old cars, even though Hagen's might be a little more expensive.

[moparbenny]

I'll let you know how I feel about Hagen's after I get the cylinders back. I checked a bunch of places and they were the least expensive and always had a person to talk to on the phone. The cost for the wheel cylinders is half what White Post wanted, although White Post has a lifetime guarantee and paints them. As far as the parts go, my local NAPA insists that it cannot find any information for cars before 1963. I know that's BS but I'd rather get the right parts from Hagen's than spend my precious spare time trying to find a parts store that knows how to find parts for old cars, even though Hagen's might be a little more expensive.

yea i hear you there. the newest car i own/drive is a 1970 plymouth..and even sometimes with that when you go to 0'really's/napa..you got to sometimes just say "i need this part number"..."o.k sir"..and then i'm on my way because alot of those clerks only know what the computer tells then to know..

my experience with Hagan's website is it's a great source to get the correct part number..(that's the hard part). and once you have the correct part number..you can go else were if you so choose..when i was looking for brake parts for my '33 chrysler..i found the # at hagan's then type that # into the o'really's seach engine and found the same part for like sometimes half what hagan wanted.

I figured hagan is not a manufacture..he has to get his parts from somewhere..because i highly doubt that he bought out some old dodge dealership 60 years ago and held on to the parts this long..(washington state has inventory tax..so some business don't hold on to stuff for very long..)

far as Clutch and brake supply my step dad went to them for years and years..they are good at finding hard to find parts..and i have talk to them on the phone and they are great the parts people seam to know there stuff.

good thing about them is since they do trucks/forklift/you name it..they have a cash flow..so when they do something for an old car they don't charge as much..these specialty shops don't always have people coming in the door..so they have to raise the price to pay for the taxes/building/people and the days they didnt get customers because not everybody drives an old car.

benny:)

[jcmiller]

The brake shop says the linings should be replaced. When I told them that the rear shoes had shorter linings originally, they said that was a cost saving measure by Plymouth and that it is fine to put full linings on. It is a little harder for them to do shorter linings. Should I insist on having the original spec linings put on?

brakeSpecs.pdf

[Niel Hoback]

My opinion is free and worth just about that much. More brake area is better. Go with bigger shoes. There is no downside. It can't hurt anything, and is probably an improvement.

[Frank Elder]

For brake drums take them to the local car wash and power wash them. Gets all the old grease out of the front drums, removes all lose dirt on the outside, and does not damage the races. Just make sure you dry the races quickly after washing to avoid any rust film. Use a decent primer and then a couple of coats of Rustoleum/Tremclad flator satin black using spray bombs. Gloss black does not dissipate the heat as quickly. I did that to some brake drums 30 years ago and they are still black.

If you really want to get the front drums grease free, after washing them use some varsol to remove any lingering film of grease. Also, be prepared to get wet as the drums will throw water everywhere.........but cheap and quick.

Robert, I am curious about your paint statement....:confused:how does satin paint dissipate heat quicker than gloss paint? Really, not a put down, but an honest question......

[jcmiller]

My opinion is free and worth just about that much. More brake area is better. Go with bigger shoes. There is no downside. It can't hurt anything, and is probably an improvement.

It seems like that would be true, but the fact that the wheel cylinders have two bore sizes makes me wonder. The existing ones are all full-length, and I think that is what most folks have now. I wasn't going to worry about it if the old ones were usable.

[55 Fargo]

Robert, I am curious about your paint statement....:confused:how does satin paint dissipate heat quicker than gloss paint? Really, not a put down, but an honest question......

I do know that lacquer based paint, will diispate heat better than enamel paint, as it is thinner in film build. However, I do not have any empirical data to substantiate this hypothesis.

The higher gloss, may seal better, or film build may be thicker, could that be a reasonable conclusion...

[jcmiller]

There is a lot of info on the effect of paint and coatings on heat dissipation on the web. As with everything else, there is not complete agreement on the topic. The key appears to be the emissivity. From what I can tell, paint has minimal impact on heat dissipation and can prevent corrosion which may a larger impact on heat dissipation than paint. Here are a couple of links:

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=40092

http://www.electro-optical.com/eoi_page.asp?h=Emissivity%20of%20Materials#Conductive Paints

[jcmiller]

When I disassembled my front brakes, there were no washers between the anchor bolt nuts and the backing plate on one side of the car. On that same side, there were washers (pictured) between the shoes and the backing plate. On the other side of the car, there were lock washers between the anchor bolt buts and the backing plate, but no washers between the shoes and the backing plate.

From looking at the parts and shop manuals, it looks like there should be lock washers between the anchor bolt nuts and the backing plate and washers between the shoes and the backing plates. Is that correct? If so, is it important to use the the type of washer attached here as the spacer between the shoes and backing plate? I'm not sure what they are called, but the inside is slightly countersunk.

Thanks.

[jcmiller]

I had a rare weekend with time to work on the car so made some decent progress on the brakes. I got the wheel cylinders back from Hagens several weeks ago, but only just now had time to sort through the rebuild kits and other parts I ordered. A number of the pistons were shot. Hagens had four spares but I am still concerned about two (1 1/8 diameter) that they could not replace. I took care of the last of the painting and most of the parts cleaning and flushed and blew out the front lines. I still have a sore neck from trying to remove the rubber line in the rear and ended up just removing all the rear lines to make it easier. That also gives me the chance to clean up that breather/junction that sits on the rear axle housing. The only thing I actually put back on is one of the front backing plates but it sure looks nice and it felt good to start putting things back together.

[jcmiller]

I've got one corner pretty much put back together now. Should I put some oil on the felt oil washers? Also, I have a small tube of Sil-Glyde, a high temperature brake lubricant. I'd welcome advice on where it should be applied. I do know that not much is required. Thanks.

[TodFitch]

I've got one corner pretty much put back together now. Should I put some oil on the felt oil washers? Also, I have a small tube of Sil-Glyde, a high temperature brake lubricant. I'd welcome advice on where it should be applied. I do know that not much is required. Thanks.

Looking good!

Not sure what, if anything, is supposed to be on the felt washer. I put just the smallest drop of motor oil on the felt. I didn't want enough to migrate off to get into any of the real workings. But I wanted something to repel water so that the felt wouldn't cause rust on the lower pivot.

[jcmiller]

While struggling (unsuccessfully) to reinstall the spring clips that hold the flexible/hard brake line junction in place, I noticed the clips had a patent number stamped on them. In desperation, I looked the number up on the U.S. Patent Office website and was able to download the six-page patent application for a "securing means." While I hoped there was a trick to it, the application seems to confirm that a BFH is in order:

"It will be noted that as the legs pass into the recesses and are engaged by the upper sides thereof, the clip is flattened and the legs twisted slightly, and I have found it most desirable that the resiliancy of the clip be such that

a material pressure

need be exerted to force the clip into its position of final engagement."

The application is attached, along with a nice diagram.

Tod - Thanks for the input. I rubbed a little bit of Sil Glyde on the felt washers.

Pages from 01875209-1-3.pdf

Pages from 01875209-4-6.pdf

[jcmiller]

I've got the brakes put back together from the front to the junction on the rear axle. Now I have to stop procrastinating and deal with the axle seals. Regarding the shims, do they need to be coated with a sealant of some sort? Also, on one of these threads I read about someone who tapped the driveshaft bearing cup in too far, making the axle hard to turn. Would it work to just tap it in a bit to get it started and then push it the rest of the way by reinstalling the backing plate?

Before and after pics of the master cylinder below. It looks good, but somehow makes the rest of the car look that much crappier.

[jcmiller]

I tapped the axle bearing cups (races) in so the outside of the cups are level with the surface of the shims, when the shims are held up to the face of the axle housing. Is that correct? Or should the races be level with the actual surface of the axle housing face? I read in another thread that the cups should touch the backing plate, so it seems like they need to be level with the shims. Thx.