Don Coatney Posted June 20, 2011 Report Share Posted June 20, 2011 There have been several threads recently from folks who have had bad luck with (high dollar) hot rod or restoration shops. Reality soon sets in to the folks who elect to go with the magazine vendors and or so called (high dollar) hot rod or restoration shops when the folks discover the stuff does not work as advertised. They then come here for advice. Why should we offer advise to be passed on the high dollar vendors? Several years back I submitted my family history to a free web site called Rootsweb. Rootsweb has now been purchased by an outfit called Ancestry. Ancestry now sells the information I submitted to others and is advertising such information on TV. My point is if you want to build and drive a dependable old car (stocker or hot rod) know what you are doing and do it your self. Dont pay others to do it for you using the information you got here for free. I will now get off my sopabox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted June 20, 2011 Report Share Posted June 20, 2011 (edited) Don you and I and a many others on here are all in the same group..it is the love of doing it yourself that motivates us to do our own cars and blessed with the good fortune of a bit of ability, drive and of course time and tools and place to work, makes this hobby affordable with fewer disappointments along the way. I know many people that do not have these luxuries and talents that depend on others.. this problem is not only here in this hobby..I have found this to be true about any business out there these days...they don't care about repeat business..another fish swims by daily..they only need to hook one a week on average..sing of the times...and sometimes they not be much fun... seems all these shops have a reason to blame something or someone else...I hate reading about these stories and experiences here..if you have to send it out, it is ever so important to know your car, its parts, inner workings etc so to be informed and not be taken to the cleaners by the bottom feeders..walk in knowing what you want, how it should get where it needs to be and get that estimate up front... now if I can ever get the house finished I could get back to work on mine...finishing up the rear gable tonight, new window, new 8" vinyl, vents and paint...think I have time for the second coat this evening... Edited June 20, 2011 by Tim Adams Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dezeldoc Posted June 20, 2011 Report Share Posted June 20, 2011 Don, i know where you are coming from, i am a 1 man shop and have over 35 years doing this, and yet i will go out and give my advise on cars and try and be honest and polite with the people, only to have them take it to someone else with a line of BS as long as the Mississippi river, then after they screw it up they call me and want to know if i can fix it, and go on about how sorry they are they did not listen to me. I am on my third job like this so far this year, maybe i need to take a course in BS 101 and try and be like the others! A lot of the pocket book builders claim they build their cars and go on about how they did this or that, but throw them a couple of questions from someone who has actually done it and they get tongue tied and start back peddling. If the business would treat the customers like they should and not like a cash cow then maybe their would be some pride put back into the art that it is. I was always taught "treat the customer as you would want to be treated, for a bad word spreads faster than a good word" I cannot tell you the problems i have had from a lot of the big named suppliers/vendors that sell junk and do not stand behind it and make you jump through hoops to get what you paid for in the first place. the whole mindset in business today is in the toilet as far as i am concerned, no one takes pride in anything they do anymore and it is sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Neon Posted June 21, 2011 Report Share Posted June 21, 2011 People ask me if I restored car my self, and I do not know how to respond. I do a lot of basic things my self and have read my service manual a couple of times. More often than not, I find my self over my head and get assistance. I try to be as honest as I can and tell people that I made all of the decisions in what they see. Most people roll their eyes, then sigh like I'm trying to be a wise acre, and then comment, "I just wanted to know if you bought it that way." I just wish people would be more precise in what they say. If some one paid some one just say that. I don't know why people use euphemisms. Don and I have been known to disagree, and some times my feelings get hurt for a few minutes. However, I don't think any less of Don. I prefer a straight shooter to a BSer any day. I hope he respects me for knowing when it is time to get help. I like driving her around. I think I know what to do, but I just can't get my hands to do what my brain tells them to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael.warshaw Posted June 21, 2011 Report Share Posted June 21, 2011 the resto shop i went to, is more of a muscle car shop not to many guys sticking money into older cars anymore, i like the old cars so i did it, don your info and others info is great since you have the knowledge of being a do it yourselfer, i wish i had your knowledge, and most important time to work on my own cars. my humble opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dezeldoc Posted June 21, 2011 Report Share Posted June 21, 2011 Mike, my first shop was nothing but muscle cars, 442, Chevelle, Nova, Galaxie and so on. Their is not a whole lot of difference just a new learning curve. They should be able to tackle your car without to many problems and what they don't know they should be searching the web for answers, it is a lot easier these days than it was even 10-15 years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flatie46 Posted June 21, 2011 Report Share Posted June 21, 2011 I guess it'd be nice to have the option to take my car and just drop it off, come back and bam shiney as a new dime. But, with kids and my mom getting on in years just don't have that kinda bank roll. I don't have any choice other than to be a do it yourselfer. I do think that if you have a shop do it for you miss out on a connection with the car and some knowledge you will only gain through doing it yourself. Don, I get what your saying. I know in the past I and others have posted questions and you probably could have rattled off the answer but you pushed us to dig or do the research ourselves. I respect that, I do my son that way. It's better for ya in the long run. I thought this fourm was for people who owned, maintained and loved old Mopar. Never thought much of it being for resto shops, I figured them boys already knew it all. I guess if they have to look here they're no better than we are. If their not why pay 'em the big bucks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niel Hoback Posted June 21, 2011 Report Share Posted June 21, 2011 That is exactly what I mean when I say, "there's nothing like on the job training". You are forced to learn problem solving and its not just for the moment, its a life long lesson. It's the reason you feel proud when you step back and look at your work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeBop138 Posted June 21, 2011 Report Share Posted June 21, 2011 I consider myself to be a fair wrench turner---BUT I do know when to call on the pro. I can talk what I want and do most of the work----I just hate doing something over---at that point you have wasted a lot of time and money. The Cav rack install was the perfect example--I did what I could do and the pro did the rest----well worth the money. I do 85% of my own work, without it I could not afford it. Guys like Don,Tim and others have been very helpful to me and others on this forum---we need each other to make it work. Plus I feel like they are good friends----------don`t let your pride get in your way if you can`t do something---it is always cheaper. Thanks to all......Lee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-12 Tommy Posted June 21, 2011 Report Share Posted June 21, 2011 Amen to all of it!! Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dezeldoc Posted June 21, 2011 Report Share Posted June 21, 2011 (edited) I guess it'd be nice to have the option to take my car and just drop it off, come back and bam shiney as a new dime. But, with kids and my mom getting on in years just don't have that kinda bank roll. I don't have any choice other than to be a do it yourselfer. I do think that if you have a shop do it for you miss out on a connection with the car and some knowledge you will only gain through doing it yourself. Don, I get what your saying. I know in the past I and others have posted questions and you probably could have rattled off the answer but you pushed us to dig or do the research ourselves. I respect that, I do my son that way. It's better for ya in the long run. I thought this fourm was for people who owned, maintained and loved old Mopar. Never thought much of it being for resto shops, I figured them boys already knew it all. I guess if they have to look here they're no better than we are. If their not why pay 'em the big bucks? Hate to say it buddy but not everybody knows it all, if you think for a minute if i am stumped on something i am not going to ask think again because their might be one guy that had the same problem and found out the answer to it and is willing to share same as i do here. and yes i am better than you! Don't forget everyone started as a back yard mechanic, I have no problems with guys that like to do their own work, we have a breakfast club that meets every morning and most of the guys are gear heads with experience ranging from very little to pros and from all walks of life, we have from 4 guys to the most we have had 25 in the group at any given time and we all help one another. Edited June 21, 2011 by dezeldoc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bewillie Posted June 21, 2011 Report Share Posted June 21, 2011 We should offer advise because he or she needs it. Plane & simple. I always thought that was what this fourm was all about. (CAR NUTS) Some people have no skills and others have a ton, Some have a lot of money and most of us have very little but we still like cars the same. There are snobs both with and without money, so answer a question if you want or don't if you don't want to. The same goes when someone ask a question that has been ask 10 times before. Just because it has been answered does not mean this person understood the answer or they are able to find the answer. Just my thoughts Billy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merle Coggins Posted June 21, 2011 Report Share Posted June 21, 2011 I always try to keep my nose out of these fights because I don't really care one way or the other if you built your vehicle by your self or paid someone to do it. I fully understand that not all car lovers are mechanically inclined enough to do the kind of work needed to restore a vehicle. I did mine myself because I am a mechanic by trade and love to tinker with things, but I also took certain things to other shops if I didn't have the proper resources or tooling to do the job properly. Either way you must know your limitations and utilize your resources to the best of your ability, whether it's your own home shop or your bank account. I believe in Mike's case he HAS been involed in his restoration process. Even though he has opted to pay someone else to do the physical work, he has been involved in the research process when questions arise. From my point of view, if you're paying a sizeable hourly shop rate for work on your car would you rather pay the guys to actally work on the car or sit at a computer doing research. It seems that he is using the resources that he has to get his car done properly. He may not be doing the wrench turning, but he is involved in the rebuild process in his own way. Why knock the guy just because he does it differently than you did? Merle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Neon Posted June 21, 2011 Report Share Posted June 21, 2011 We should offer advise because he or she needs it. Plane & simple. I always thought that was what this fourm was all about. (CAR NUTS) Some people have no skills and others have a ton, Some have a lot of money and most of us have very little but we still like cars the same. There are snobs both with and without money, so answer a question if you want or don't if you don't want to. The same goes when someone ask a question that has been ask 10 times before. Just because it has been answered does not mean this person understood the answer or they are able to find the answer.Just my thoughts Billy But is any one ENTITLED to an answer just because they have asked it? That is the real question. If every one chooses not to offer advice, and some one screams that they are ENTITLED to that advice simply because they posted a question on this forum that is a problem. Some people come on here and DEMAND answers. Most don't stick around long. Others are like a bad rash that keeps coming back. Your comment seems to go on and on about how every question deserves an answer no matter how many times it is asked, but then you offer a cop out by saying that people don't have to answer a question or offer advice if they don't want to. Sometimes people just don't like the advice given them, and think they can get the answer they really want if they just keep asking the same question. Which is it? Is everyone entitled to advice or do people have the right not to offer advice? Who determines if the advice one gives is good enough? You? Telling some one to look it up in the shop manual or to use the search function IS advice. Some one comes on here wanting a part, and some offers that part at a price. Are you the one that will then determine if the price asked is too high and then DEMAND that part be sold for what YOU think is a fair price? Some people's questions border on expecting some one to hop a plane, and arrive toolbox and new parts in hand to fix for free. Nothing wrong with tough love, or maybe I'm just STUPID. Just my thoughts! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Horne Posted June 21, 2011 Report Share Posted June 21, 2011 (edited) There have been several threads recently from folks who have had bad luck with (high dollar) hot rod or restoration shops.Reality soon sets in to the folks who elect to go with the magazine vendors and or so called (high dollar) hot rod or restoration shops when the folks discover the stuff does not work as advertised. They then come here for advice. Why should we offer advise to be passed on the high dollar vendors? "Why", because we love this hobby and like to see others enjoy their rides. Don, your information, and photos, have been a tremendous help to many of us here, and I for one really appreciate your talents and patience with many of us . Many times people on here have asked about a T5 trans, and you have given much information and photos about the T5. High dollar Vendors taking information gained by people like us, is just part of our hobby. Hopefully the information will help many others improve their cars. I will get off the soap box now, I have to go pee. Bob, an Apple latchun A merry cun...... Edited June 21, 2011 by Robert Horne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacTexas Posted June 21, 2011 Report Share Posted June 21, 2011 I understand your problem. I used to do family research on the web and there were a number of sites that had good information, then, Ancestry came along and realized they could charge an annual fee to those doing research. It allowed them to buy all the free sites so now when you do research you think you are on to something and the trail leads to Ancestry asking for money. Glad I did 7 generations back before Ancestry took over. The same thing happens when you post about an adapter for a T-5 transmission and someone comes along and starts charging for the same information. We have to be careful about complaining too much. It could allow Government to come in to "fix" the problem and regulate the Internet. We all know what happens when the government gets involved, we lose some of our freedom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bewillie Posted June 21, 2011 Report Share Posted June 21, 2011 INTITLED? Where did you see that in my post? Agin everyone is free to ask any question they care to and everyone can eather answer or move on to the next post. PLANE & SIMPLE!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted June 21, 2011 Report Share Posted June 21, 2011 I think this thread is getting a bit off the topic..it is not that anyone has critized or condemned Mike for his part in the work on the car...or for that matter what amount of money he has paid..but that the car is not what was expected after money paid to the shop is the gist of this thread...for a topic that only had 2 entires after 69 reads this topic seems to have taken a real buzz..personally I hope the man gets his money worth in the end with the least amount of fuss as possible..the fact that we have had back to back topics on jobs gone wrong posted here is probably feeding fuel and confusion to the equation.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg g Posted June 21, 2011 Report Share Posted June 21, 2011 (edited) I seem to have entered a period where switching horses from DYI to paying someone else to do things is becoming more of a reality. In the past I would have shuddered at the prospect of paying someone more than 100 bucks to repair my differential pinion seal. But I shuddered more at the thoughts of spending an unknown amount of time on my back under the car working over my head to remove the driveshaft, undo the pinion nut, pull the flange, remove the seal, install the new one, press on the speedy sleeve, and put it back together. If the shop took an hour or so by the book, for me it would have been at leat 4 hours and many times getting down and getting back up for another tool, a bigger hammer, more light, safety glasses, a cold beverage, the service manual, another cold beverage, lunch, a couple of Ibuprofins, a couple more tools, etc. Without a lift and a serious compressor, I probably would have failed and had it towed to the shop to have it finished. So I swallowed my pride, made an apointment and had it done with parts and shop services and new diffy oil it came to 127 bucks. My back wasn't sore, my shoulders didn't ache, and I didn't rile up my carpal tunnels. I did have an intellegent conversation with the techician, went and got the new seal and the speedy sleeve, and got to observe a bit of the process when the job started, When I saw the tech use a tire crayon to mark the drive shaft to flange position, I was satisfied he was competent. I went home, mowed the lawn and awaited the call that the job was finished. I am looking at a job now of fixing a leak in my upstairs bathtub drain. It will involve renting a scaffold, working over my head,(arthritis in neck and shoulders limits this) pulling the ceiling, finding and repairing the leak, repairing and repainting the ceiling. The more I look at it the more likely it will become a checkbook job. As I have retired and transitioned from making and saving money to having checks arrive with no effort, and realizing I am spending what will be my daughter's inheritence, the easier it becomes to whip out the check book. Being brought up by parents who lived though the great depression, its a difficult transition but is becoming easier as new things crop up. I do believe in researching repairs and becoming familiar with what is necessary to the job before farming it out, but I guess that is what money is for. I did get on my back the other day to tinker on the Studebaker, and will continue to do so, but there is no urgency with items there, so the time spent is not a concern. Each to his own, but this forum seems formed mainly of enthusiasts, do it yourselfers, gearheads and tinkerers, that do have a wealth of experiance and knowledge and are generally willing to share it without condition, however amatures teaching professionals on a regular basis sometime rankles. No offense to the professional mechanics and technicians who frequent here, as you participate on a give and take basis rather than seaking resoures to ply your trade. Lets hope that the professionals that folks are working with know what they are doing and stand up for the work they have collected large sums of money for. We all hate dealing with problems and getting screwed by folks who proport thems selves to be able to handle things correctly then don't have a clue when they get into the job. My friend who rus a resto shop is working on a very rare vehicle a 1937 Pierce Arrow Sedanica. He has in his shop the other one of these, It says factory made, but the body looks to be hand fabricated, with mayn welds, and lots of interior hammer and dollie witness marks. lots of lead on the outside making this a very difficult restoration. He has probably as many hours in research as his techs have in the actual metal work. the entire front end assembly had to be remade to correct collision dames done in the early 50's. His previous project was a 1923 Buick hearse that came in on several trucks and trailers and drove out. Needless to say there are not manuals or internet forums for these two, but his approach is he will start knowing very little but end up knowing every nut and bolt and system and make sure it correct before it leaves. If of course the customer has the resources to complete the job. Edited June 21, 2011 by greg g Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coW52Dodge Posted June 21, 2011 Report Share Posted June 21, 2011 That is exactly what I mean when I say, "there's nothing like on the job training". You are forced to learn problem solving and its not just for the moment, its a life long lesson. It's the reason you feel proud when you step back and look at your work. That's how I feel about it. For me, it wouldn't be fun to drive a car or truck someone else restored or got working. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Neon Posted June 21, 2011 Report Share Posted June 21, 2011 INTITLED? Where did you see that in my post? Agin everyone is free to ask any question they care to and everyone can eather answer or move on to the next post. PLANE & SIMPLE!!!!! The entitlement mentality comes from those coming on this forum that expect the repair to materialise from their broadband connection. I can think of at least three instances where individuals have come on here and asked a question. Some one replied with good advice, and because the questioner did not like the frank response, actually stated that since he asked a question he was entitled to a certain response. I remember an other time some one came on the forum and asked a question. A few hours later, they came on and asked the same question in all caps. They repeated this a couple of times until some one finally commented that asking the same question multiple times would not necessarily make the answer come any quicker. Just don't get angry, then, the next time some one asks a question or makes a request, and you don't like the response he gets. I think we actually have some written guidelines on what sort of questions one can ask on this forum. I don't think any one can ask any question they want. The moderator has specifically stated that certain topics are off limits. Here are some questions that I would like you to answer for me. Does? INTITLED = ENTITLED Agin = Again eather = either PLANE = PLAIN I can't find the first three words in my dictionary, and I don't understand how flying machines are simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatS.... Posted June 21, 2011 Report Share Posted June 21, 2011 I don't really care if it's a home built or expensive shop built, there are reasons to do both. Personally, I wish I had bought a car that was complete and a driver instead of a field find. It was OK until I began having health problems but now it seems like a weight around my neck. I dread the thought of having to move it with no front wheels yet...it has not come up but it may. Had I bought a complete driver, it would not be an issue right now. I could still work on it and tinker but it would be out killing bugs not keeping dust off the garage floor! I can't possibly afford a shop to do anything, but would if I could. I guess whether they are home built, shop built or a combination...as long as they are saved, I support it. What another person spends on what they own is really none of my business. As far as advice, if I can help, I will, home built or shop built doesn't matter, as long as it ends up on the road somehow and not scrapped. As for Ancestry, I got fairly well along before Roots and then that site helped alot, but Ancestry has broken down some brick walls. Through Ancestry I found a few rellies in Australia and we communicate almost daily. If what I found on my own helps someone else find what they need, I'm happy to help. If Ancestry has to charge for what they provide, well, profit isn't a dirty word. The info I found is there for anyone to find, I simply connected the dots to reveal the connection to my particular family. That same info could be used to connect to another family most of the time as well. I sign up for Ancestry in the winter to work on the family tree, not all year. There is still alot that Ancestry can't help on and ALOT of misinformation. You still need to check sources to be sure you have the right person and family. My "tree" now has about 700 people on it, some great old pictures and some interesting stories, and goes back to the mid 1600's on both sides. This is the era it gets tough and time consuming, but still very interesting. The only time I have trouble helping is when the same question is asked several times or if the advice I gave was ignored. I am hesitant to give the same advice twice and even more hesitant to give it out when it's ignored. Makes me feel like what I have discovered is considered useless. Just my nickels worth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Jordan Posted June 22, 2011 Report Share Posted June 22, 2011 Most of the mechanics who can do the work have responded on this thread. I'd like to say not everyone is talented in that area but we still like old cars. I tried to paint my car. I sanded, primered, sanded, painted, sanded. It was going on forever and I could never get the look I wanted so I took it in. It was very expensive but I am happy with the look. I picked out the interior but I took it to a professional. Very expensive. But I am happy with it. I took the engine out and knew that I didn't have the ability to bore it out, mill the flywheel so I took it to a shop. Very expensive but it purrs like a kitten. I marvel at your talents, I appreciate your advice, I enjoy my car. I joined this forum to share with like minded people information about cars. It seems to me that if you don't want to offer advice or answer a question that's been asked 100 times then DON'T. I just ask that some of you need to have compassion for those not as gifted as you. While I may not do all the work you do I don't think you get any more enjoyment out of your car than I do. "From each according to his ability to each according to his need." d- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgeb4ya Posted June 22, 2011 Report Share Posted June 22, 2011 I can do all phases or automobile work from engine rebuilds to paint and upholstry. I really appreciate and thank the guys who cannot do much if any resto/repair/or rebuild work on their cars! They put money in my pocket. I do the work for them. I would never harp on people who have a shop do the work. Some folks never grew up mechanically minded, but they at least are getting another old piece of the past going again and lookin good-thats a good thing. I appreciate both those who do their own and those who don't. Works for me! This site helps both types and should. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bewillie Posted June 22, 2011 Report Share Posted June 22, 2011 Your a better speller than me. Never said I was a good speller. Only went to the 7th grade but I am willing to help anyone when they need it and don't knock others just because they don't do things the way I would. Have a good day SIR! Billy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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