What does this engine code mean?

[jcmiller]

The code on my block is DSP 35205. What does this mean? I have a book that says that the DS block is from a 1934 Dodge Special. The book does not mention a "P" but I suppose that could just be the second letter in "special." This engine is in my 1942 Plymouth. Picture attached. Thanks.

[Niel Hoback]

That doesn't look like a factory number stamp. At some time it was probably rebuilt and the rebuilder put his own number on it. Your number should start with "P14-".

[jcmiller]

Yes, I was disappointed not to find P14, but I'm not sure I buy your explanation. Is that a common practice? It seems very strange to me that someone would take the time to grind off the original stamp and put their own stamp on it. What would be the purpose? No one but the rebuilder would know what it meant.

[Plymouthy Adams]

seems you did not like the AACA answers either...the P series started in 1936..in you

AACA thread you started the introduction of your car asking if coupe or business coupe and stated that you had the P13 engine..now all of a sudden this engine has a DSP prefix..are you trying to justify this engine as an original? I am confused to say the least...more than not the better source for this information as the explanation here is unsuitable would be the POC folks as they are the experts on all things Plymouth..

[Andydodge]

And what makes you think your engine had to have a number anyway?......lol........I have a 230 industrial engine that does not have an engine number, sure it was out of an airport tug but, still no number.........your block may have been a mopar replacement block, did they come with a number?........looks like it has some nice and original patina anyway......lol.......andyd

[Young Ed]

The proper engine number for a 42 plymouth would be P14. I am unaware of any dsp engine code.

[Niel Hoback]

It is common for comercial rebuilders to mark their work to protect themselves during warrantee work. I'm not refereing to the shop on the corner, but rather Sears, Wards, Jasper, and others who sell mass rebuilds.

The attached picture is a block that one day, (I hope), will move from the corner of the garage to under the hood of my P-15, M23#24I73#.

[jcmiller]

Tim - I'm not sure what you mean about not liking the AACA answers. My only goal is to learn as much about this car as I can. I don't like your insinuation to the contrary. I posted the photo there last night and here this morning. I posted here too because this is a very active forum and is focused on Plymouth and Dodge.

Regarding AACA, I thought it said D3P at first because that is what it looked like the first day I saw it before I put some steel wool to it. The P13 you mention was given to me by the owner and he mistakenly took that number off the head. Keiser asked for a photo and it took me three weeks to get it. Now I have it and the code is pretty darn clear. What's it mean? I don't really know and have no agenda other than to figure it out.

To Andy and Ed - Until Andy suggested otherwise, I did think all blocks had codes. And I do know what the proper code is for a 1942, but that's not the point. I want to know, if possible, where this engine came from. If it came from a 1934 Special, for instance, it might have some value to someone with that car.

Neil - Thanks for your input and for not taking my follow-up question as an insult. It certainly was not intended to be one.

seems you did not like the AACA answers either...the P series started in 1936..in you

AACA thread you started the introduction of your car asking if coupe or business coupe and stated that you had the P13 engine..now all of a sudden this engine has a DSP prefix..are you trying to justify this engine as an original? I am confused to say the least...more than not the better source for this information as the explanation here is unsuitable would be the POC folks as they are the experts on all things Plymouth..

Edited April 28, 2011 by jcmiller

[Scruffy49]

My 230 (out of a 56 Savoy) hs code DZ and 1/2 a star, nothing else. And no milling marks on the number pad as if the original number had been ground off.

My 218 (out of a 48 P15) has a standard factory number in the pad, and it was a short block installed in 1965 fresh from a rebuilder exchange program.

So my 49 1/2 ton truck was technically registered as a 1948 P15 engine... Washington used to use the engine number as the vehicle serial number.

[Niel Hoback]

I have also noticed that the number pad is raised high enough that the number could be ground off and changed more than once!

Indiana also used the engine number as the vehicle number until 1954. If you changed your engine, you were supposed to go to the BMV and have the title changed also. Widely disregarded.

[Scruffy49]

Yeah, but my title has the serial number to a lump of scrap iron. I hate dealing with state inspectors to get paperwork corrected. Thank god my dad has the original bill of sale from 1949 in his safe and is going to send it my way. He signed the title for me (as his parents' executor) but I have a feeling I'll need the real deal paperwork to prove the truck is "clean".

[Young Ed]

33 and 34 engines didn't have a full water jacket. You would see 6 indents where the cylinders are instead of a smooth sided block.

[Niel Hoback]

Look below the distributor right above the bottom edge of the block. There should be a casting date that will give you an idea of the oldest it could be.

[Plymouthy Adams]

it was not an insinuation..it was my stated opinion as I read it...you "did not buy" the given explanation here also...I may be wrong but I got the general idea you 'want' this engine to be matching to your car for originality..forgetabout it..you got a non numbers matched unit...if you are out to enjoy the car it is of no consequence..but if you look for a car to eventually show for point..an engine with the correct number is in your future..

[greg g]

Chrysler sold un numbered blocks to liscensed rebuilders. Should have stamped in numbers to identify them, as was mentioned, sears jasper, western auto and lots of other independents. Many of them eschewed the stamped in numbers and attached informations tags to the block usually by means of a rivet or rivets. These tags took many formsfrom simple serial numbers to fully enameled and embossed items.

The color of the paint remaining on the block does not look (at least on my monitor) to be a chrysler style silver.

The Dodge dealer I worked for while in high school in teh mid 60's had a rebuilding shop which was a shed attached to the back of the body shop. Two old fellows worked there building engines. When they built stuff from new unmarked blocks they punched in their initials followed by 5 digits, starting with 00000 increased by 1 for each build, these they recorded in a ledger with the date, the number, and the specs on the internals used to build the engine. When they retired, the machines and tolls were sold and the ledgers were tossed.

[jcmiller]

Thanks again Neil. Rusty O'Toole concurs with your opinion so I think that has to be the leading theory. He also pointed out, like Ed, that 34's don't have the full water jacket so that theory is DOA.

Edited April 29, 2011 by jcmiller
To remove response to Tim.

[BobT-47P15]

Any markings on the head......raised letters cast into it??

P for Plymouth, D for Dodge......

And the suggestion of looking below the distributer for raised

date numbers is good......tells month, day & year. Here's an

example.

And here is a head from a Plymouth......has the P embossed on it.......just for some further

possible way to ID.

Edited April 29, 2011 by BobT-47P15

[Plymouthy Adams]

with all the gathering of information and based on your statement you may make an offer with the contingency that the engine was original if they did not accept your ofer..what more could one assume except that you wanted the car to be original...I did not come by this hastily but by gathering the tidbit of info as you threw them out and the obvious naysaying of information given to you by those that not only knew the answer but went out of their way to assist you.....I'm just saying that if you don't know and ask at least accept the answer till you can prove otherwise..the answer to any future question may depend on it.......and you saying that from the get go it you stated it was was not a P14..you are right..you claimed it to be a P13...no manner of wishing or playing with the letters is going to fit this vehicle in the absence of P14...I am not knocking your wanting to know the answer to what you have..only the manner you threw these answers aside when given..finding what company/rebuilder used the DSP stamp could prove to be a difficult challenge but more than not someone may have that information and the proper section of the AACA could quickly get an answer in say, the Gereral Discussion as most folks go here before they will a column of a model they do not own an example of. were you able to flip the Chrysler Traveler?

[Plymouthy Adams]

I've taken a few minutes and have gone through my books here that have data from 36 through 54..not all inclusive but at least tried to get a handle on the mysterious coding...but I did come across this while plugging in a few search combo's...I am not sure if you want to take the time and trouble and drop a Jackson plus shipping..but this puppy may very well have the answer you are looking for...

for your consideration...

http://www.factoryautomanuals.com/p-86910-1946-chrysler-corp-replacement-engines-catalog.aspx

[Frank Ollian]

Last fall a guy in north Portland had an engine for sale with the number DSP 30908, he said it came out of a 47 Ply I believe (that might not mean anything). Maybe the DSP could be a rebuild from a shop in the area? I've been curious about the DSP code too, hope someone can identify it.

[Plymouthy Adams]

ponder this if you may.. a google search identifies the initials DSP as Department of State Police for the state of Oregon..could be that this is a numbering system they use to issue a title to a person building a car without documentation..

[Plymouthy Adams]

I am going to throw out one more that maybe someone can run with that has older Dodge books...

DSP = Dodge Service Parts as a line for factory rebuilt units...

thats it for me..all the time I can give to this subject..

[Jim Saraceno]

Here is a link that explains many engine numbers... http://www.t137.com/registry/help/otherengines/otherengines.php

There were Dodge, Plymouth, industrial, military and marine applications for these engines plus replacement blocks and rebuilds.

As yours doesn't have a standard prefix I would think that would indicate a rebuild.

[Young Ed]

ponder this if you may.. a google search identifies the initials DSP as Department of State Police for the state of Oregon..could be that this is a numbering system they use to issue a title to a person building a car without documentation..

I think you probably nailed it there. A lot of states used to title vehicles by the engine #. If you replaced the engine you could end up with a state issued # on it to have a valid title. WI used to do this. The 40 plymouth pickup Dad bought outta WI has a replacement engine that was restamped with the factory # because of this.

[desoto1939]

Time and the rest of the input about the engine number.

When you take your car to an AACA event the judges do not look at the engine serial numbers. The perform a visual inspection of the engine comparment. They are looking to see that the engine is the correct vintage and that the engine block and head and other parts, etc generator water pump volt regular correct wiring etc are of the correct vintage that should be inthe engine compartment. They are not permited to climb into the engine area to verify that engine number becasue they could scratch the paint an or do damge to the car. So you could have a 48 engine in a 39 Desoto and if it looked correct and was all dressed out like it came from the factory it would get no deductiions inthis area.

The POC is more likely to look at the numbers on the engine compatment to verify that the numbers match. But as you have stated you can grind downthe numbers and then put in an incorrect code and if the engine looked to be proper they would not even know. As an owner I would have a very difficult time if a POC judge and even an AACA judge started to get that close to the fenders and getting that deep into the engine area. I would have to ask them to not inspect the car and then take the car out of competition. No jusdge should ever be getting so close to a car to cause any possible damage.

An AACA judge can not crawl under the car to look at the undercarraige. They are only permitted to get down on one knee to inspect the underside of the car. They can do this on all four sides of the car but thats as far as it can go.

So AACA Senior car can stillnot have all of the proper parts and still get a perfect score?????? This is why judging at most shows have stopped and only participation awards are given. Even AACA jusges do know know everything abiout everycar so it comes down to how pretty the car looks and if it gives the overall appearance to look like it just came off the assembly line. Cars can be over restored according to AACA judging specifications.

Also any pre 1946 car according to AACA can now have an electric fuel pump onthe car so long as it is not visible and is insalled in a manner to not be seen when getting down on 1 knee.

Rich Hartung

I have attend numerous AACA juding class and seminars.

Desoto1939@aol.com