OT- Need some help getting my Willys to run...

[blueskies]

I've discovered since I sold my beloved Plymouth and bought my Willys that I am much better at assembling a shiny new pile of parts into something kick-a$$ than I am at taking an assembled pile of worn out POS parts and making it run long enough to get down the street...

My '60 Wilys wagon has been running well enough to run around town, and I have been fixing the weak links as they break. I've only had to use a roll-back once thus far...

But this time I'm stumped, and need the collective wisdom of my fellow Plymouth brotherhood.

I've been having trouble getting the wagon started in very cold temps, 10-20 degrees. The lousy battery that it has will go flat before it fires. I charge it up, and try again, and get it going.

The engine is a flathead six 226, similar to the Plymouth flathead.

It has an electric fuel pump that I put in a toggle switch because the mechanical pump seems to work just fine. But when it is cold and hard to start, I've been turning on the electric pump to get the fuel to the carb faster because of the weak battery.

I went through this routing a few days ago, planning to take my son to school. Once I got it running, I left it idling in the driveway for about 10-15 minutes to warm up while I got my son ready for school. We went outside to get in, and I noticed right off that it was running very rough. We hopped in, and I noticed that I had left the electric pump on... I figured it was flooding, and would clear itself once we got going.

But to my dismay, it wouldn't rev at all, it would just bog. I never did get it to come off idle.

I shot this clip of it running crappy-

After watching the clip a few times, I noticed that when it belches fuel vapor out the carb, it also blows a bunch out of the base of the carb... clearly a bad gasket seal.

So, I figured I might as well tear the carb apart and do a rebuild while I had it off to change the gasket. I tore it apart, and didn't find anything obviously amiss. Got it all squeaky clean, and re-assembled with adjusted float and new parts/gaskets. Installed, and it runs just the same as before.

Here's a clip of it running after...

It has a new coil, new spark plugs and wires, new condensor, new points. It was running ok the day before, this way the next. I don't think the timing changed, but I did try adjusting it with it running and it didn't make any difference. I changed the plug wires after I did the carb rebuild, so I'm sure they are in the right order. The carb is squirting fuel.

I have not done a compression check, and haven't checked the points again. Also haven't yet tried to dump some fresh gas down the carb in case the gas in the take is bad (the gas in the take is only a week or so old, and I've run a few tanks through it before now). Other than that, I'm stumped.

Any thoughts? What am I missing?

Thanks for the help...

Pete

[Plymouthy Adams]

you stated my first recommendation..check the compression..if it is low and even..it will be hard to start even in optimum weather..add the cold, increased drag due to oil vicosity etc etc..these add to each other and further make it tough....

if the compression checks out good...do ensure good spark..what kind of choke mechanism are you using..manual some factory electrical with heater assist or heat tube or other bimetal type setup?

have you also verified the starting circuits not to have cable/component voltage drops..and within the allowable current pull...?

[greg g]

even with the new plugs if it was running super rich, maybe even pouring row gas into the manifold with over filling, they probably need attention. I would pull them and clean them up or meybe even replace them again. Also is the high idle step working when the choke is on???

As discussed in a previous thread, a couple of trouble lights near the battery and up near the carb will have the engine thinking is warmer out side that it is. Just be carefull to place the lights so there is no contact between the lamp housings and the components.

When I was a kid my grandomother used to keep a few chickens, a 75 watt bulb hung over the water bowl kept it from freezing even with outside temps near 0.

I just bought a battery for my Jetta (its a 2002 and it was the original battery) a 2nd from the Interstate warehouse for 28 bucks 800 CCA rated.

[blueskies]

you stated my first recommendation..check the compression..if it is low and even..it will be hard to start even in optimum weather..add the cold, increased drag due to oil vicosity etc etc..these add to each other and further make it tough....

if the compression checks out good...do ensure good spark..what kind of choke mechanism are you using..manual some factory electrical with heater assist or heat tube or other bimetal type setup?

have you also verified the starting circuits not to have cable/component voltage drops..and within the allowable current pull...?

even with the new plugs if it was running super rich, maybe even pouring row gas into the manifold with over filling, they probably need attention. I would pull them and clean them up or meybe even replace them again. Also is the high idle step working when the choke is on???

As discussed in a previous thread, a couple of trouble lights near the battery and up near the carb will have the engine thinking is warmer out side that it is. Just be carefull to place the lights so there is no contact between the lamp housings and the components.

When I was a kid my grandomother used to keep a few chickens, a 75 watt bulb hung over the water bowl kept it from freezing even with outside temps near 0.

I just bought a battery for my Jetta (its a 2002 and it was the original battery) a 2nd from the Interstate warehouse for 28 bucks 800 CCA rated.

pretty sure it's not the choke. And the plugs are new.

compression test is next...

Pete

[Don Coatney]

I agree a compression test is in order. But I also agree with Greg, even new plugs will fowl in short order if the mixture is rich or the blow by excessive. I have found with my engine that once the plugs fowl they must be removed and cleaned as no ammount of continuing to run the engine will clear them.

[oldodge41]

Check your oil for the smell of gasoline. If it flooded that badly it may have got some gas in the oil. Won't make it run bad but could damage the internals and you won't want to run it without changing the oil. I would also pull those plugs and have a look, could be fouled badly. If the plugs are ok I would next put a timing light on it. If it is off, check the points first, if you don't have a timing light I would check the points before digging any deeper at this point......Tim

[blueskies]

A quick clarification about the plugs...

After it started to run crappy, I assumed it had fouled the plugs. I pulled the old ones out, and they didn't look too bad. Instead of cleaning them, I installed a brand spanking new set of plugs, and it ran the same.

Compression test tomorrow, along with an inspection of the points.

The oil needs to be changed anyway, so that is on the list too. I'm not so sure it flooded with the pump, as it was running. Doesn't seem to be flooded now either.

Pete

[JerseyHarold]

Have you checked the vacuum advance diaphragm and the distributor in general to make sure the timing is what it should be?

Another cause of hard starting is a stretched timing chain (if that engine has one).

Edited December 7, 2010 by JerseyHarold

[norrism1]

I would check the timing. First do a static timing check then check it running with a timing light.

[Jim Saraceno]

You may want to check the fuel system (volume or pressure test) to make sure there are no restrictions.

[oldodge41]

Don't rule out bad fuel either. It might be a good idea to put some dry gas in and try running it then.

[blueskies]

Don't rule out bad fuel either. It might be a good idea to put some dry gas in and try running it then.

Did a quick gas check this morning, poured some gas down the carb with it running, and it still wouldn't rev. Seems electrical to me, if not compression related. Seems to be running on only about 3 cylinders.

Even if it was a couple of sticking valves, I would think it would still rev even if it was running on 1 cylinder.

I'm also going to put the old condensor back in for a check. Maybe the new one crapped out and it's not getting a decent spark.

Pete

[PatS....]

I had a cracked distributor cap do that on me in a 54 IHC truck back in the olden days

[Rodney Bullock]

Pete first off you and your son have nerves of steel. I would be on the phone with my congressman about that road:) It is a Willys so it was made for that situation.

When a motor will not rev usually it has to do with a vacum leak or timing. I know you have tried everything however loosen the dist and turn it while trying to rev the motor. Someone mentioned earlier about the vacum advance. It's got something to do with the distribution of the spark. I don't think your carb is the problem. Unless you are losing vacum at the base or somewhere. You will fine it though keep at it it will revel itself to you. I went back and reread your post. It's something to do with the dist. If it was running ok then it started to run crappy a dist will do that could be anything in there. Yes it does sound like it's running on 3 cly.

Edited December 8, 2010 by Rodney Bullock

[blueskies]

...It's something to do with the dist. If it was running ok then it started to run crappy a dist will do that could be anything in there...

I knew it was something simple, just took me a bit to find it... Rodney was right, it was in the distributor...

I checked the compression, not very consistent but between 85 and 100 psi. This ruled out a stuck valve....

I've been thinking all along it was electrical, not fuel, because it was so sudden. So I decided to swap in the old condenser to see if it made a difference. I pulled off the distributor cap, and climbed under the hood to take out the screws that hold in the condenser. Just for grins, I made sure it was in neutral and used a screwdriver on the starter solenoid to turn it over while I watched the points. There was spark at the points contacts, but it didn't look right. I tried to open the points with my screw driver, and the arm that moves back and forth fell off....

The old points were all metal, and the new points that I replaced them with less than 50 miles ago have a plastic piece that rotates on the hinge, and has a metal arm attached with four little copper rivets. These rivets failed, and the arm was hanging on by one of the four.

Ran over the auto parts place that I got them from, got a replacement set, and it fired right up.

I adjusted the carb a bit, and it revs fine. It ran pretty shitty for a while, missing and stumbling. I decided to take it for a spin, and drove it in a blizzard to my office, 15 miles away. I ran it about 50 mph up the highway, and by the time I got to my office it was running pretty good. The missing and stumbling went away. I still need to adjust the choke and fiddle with the carb a bit more, but it is back on the road . Starts much easier too, now that the carb base gasket is sealed.

Just in time too, I have to take my Tahoe in for repair on Friday, and the wagon will be a daily for a few days until I get the Tahoe back.

Put some new wiper blades on and can now see where I'm going in the snow. The defroster actually melted the frost off of the inside of the glass...

Pete

[blueskies]

P.S.

Thanks everyone for all the advice...

Pete

[TodFitch]

Great to hear you got that sorted out!

[Rodney Bullock]

Hey Pete, I am overjoyed:) I will need your help as well.

[Alshere59]

It's always good when someone actually gets back to tell what the problem was. A lot of times you just assume the OP fixed the problem.

[greg g]

I remember a friend who had the PU version. The heater would chase you out of the cab after about 10 minutes. Good to hear you got the old thing running again.

[blueskies]

I remember a friend who had the PU version. The heater would chase you out of the cab after about 10 minutes. Good to hear you got the old thing running again.

I think my heater is full of mud dobbers.... Everything else was full of those little mud cocoon things... The generator was packed with them, didn't know it until it died...

I wish the heater would run me out... I checked the temps with my handheld infrared thermometer: 180 going in to the heater, 120 or so coming out. Air coming out of the heater 71 at the heater box, 50 at the defroster vents.

Maybe filling all the holes that let in the outside would help...

Now I'm just hoping it will run long enough to get me back home in the snow...

Pete

[P-12 Tommy]

Pete, glad your up and running again. Stay warm!

Tom

[Jim Saraceno]

Glad it ended up being something simple.

[oldodge41]

It is always the last thing you check. LOL, couldn't resist. Glad to hear it is up and running again.

[blueskies]

It is always the last thing you check. LOL

Aint that the truth...

The wagon is running better than ever, starts much easier in the cold too. The carb rebuild made a big difference.

Pete