Filler, Filler, & More Filler

[Joe Flanagan]

That's what I've been doing for the past few weeks. I'm working on the hood, front and rear fenders, and trunk lid. It's amazing to me how tough it is to get the surface right. I've read a bunch and asked a lot of questions and I have a lot of experience with drywall and plastering, but it is tough to come away with a perfect surface on this thing. I can get really, really close but then there's always some little hiccup somewhere that I need to fix. I know the high build primer will help somewhat with this, but I don't want to lean on that too much. I'm using a long sanding block, and a dry guide coat made by 3M. It's basically a graphite powder that you can put on a sponge and apply to the surface. It always tells the truth.

I'm almost ready to shoot epoxy primer on these parts. Then I'm going to do the high build, the color, the clear, and then put them away and start on the doors. The funny thing is, I'm using a lot of filler, but not much is winding up on the car itself. I know I'm wasting material, but at my level it seems like it takes that much to get the surface right. I'm still learning. Reminds me of when Rockwood was doing his body work. I'm feeling your pain now, Fred.

[55 Fargo]

On curves and rounded areas, the long board may not work as well, and especially in tight spots.

I like to use long boards for big flatter surfaces, but tfor the rounded areas, and curves, go for a 5 and 9 inch rubber block, also use a soft block for curves and tightspots too.

One thing you want is smooth transitions from filler to metal, nice feather edges, that make a big difference.

I may not have got all my highs and lows, but my filler was sanded out nice and flat with good feather edges.

Joe on real rough panels, try the 2 k Polyester riller primer, shoot it on with a gun with about a 2.2 tip, you could bury a 25 cent piece with this stuff, and it does not shrink back much, nor does it have any ISOs.

Far as wasting material, filler is relatively cheap, and so is sand paper, you nkot being an expereienced body man your gonna have some ttrial and error, I found a lot of my applied filler wound up as sand dust on the flooer......good luck Fred

[greg g]

Joe are you using standard body filler, or have you gotten to using icing or spotting compound. There are several finishing fillers that are made expressly for final surfacing.

This stuff cuts easier tha regular filler so less sanding with finer paper is used making it less likely to remove too much.

As they say the devil is in the details. getting to a factory surface prior to paint is a tedious effort. I stoped well short of that level with my Studebaker Truck, and it shows, but trucks tend to get lumpier than cars.

http://www.autobodymaster.com/product_list.jsp?PHPRJ_GROUP_ID=1878&PHL1_CD=108&PHL2_CD=1128

[55 Fargo]

Joe, once you are satisfied with your filler work, primer with a good quality 2 k high build urethane primer surfacer, block again with 220, use the 2 part glaze to fill scratches,pin holes etc. The lay on 2 to 3 more coats of high buld 2 k urethane primer, block with 400 to 600 wetsand.Thehigh build primer tkaes car of a lot, compared to old lacquer primers....

[Joe Flanagan]

Thanks, fellas. I'm using Evercoat's polyester putty. It's a two part filler, very smooth, highly sandable, nice finish. I also have a good 2k primer surfacer I'm going to use. Omni's MP282. Good to hear that it will cover up well. I was told to avoid the one part filler. I heard it doesn't hold up very well. Anyway, I'm almost finished with the filler on the fenders, trunk, and hood. Epoxy primer is next. Maybe even as soon as this afternoon.

[Plymouthy Adams]

the Evercoat two part polyester filler is certainly the way to go..shrinkage..not a worry like the tube stuff...I never did care for the Omni primer however..don't care for the paint either..but everyone has thier own opinion and choice..

[alan32433]

I am at a similar stage with my 48 DeSoto. The whole car was stripped to bare metal, epoxy primed then several coats of high build 2K (5 star) with a 2.2 HVLP. It may seem like a lot of high build, but I had to sand between coats to get all the pits and waves out of the panels. I didn't use much filler because I spent weeks with a hammer and dolly. The thing I would like to add to this discussion is to make sure you use the proper temperature reducers with your 2K. Sometimes they say you don't have to reduce at all, only adding the catalyst, but thats not my experience with the several vehicles I have painted. The 2K primers dry really fast and if they dry before the material has time to level, you will be doing a LOT of unnecessary sanding. 5 Star 2K can be mixed 4:1:1 with the last component being temperature dependent reducer. That slows the drying down and prevents a chalky surface but you will have to wait a little longer to sand. Believe me, it's well worth it. Also let me suggest using Devilbiss DeKups system instead of your typical paint cups. Worth three times the price by reducing your clean up time and wasted thinners.

[55 Fargo]

lacquer based spot putty is okay, I use it too, it is a single component airdry putty.

The newer polyester 2 component puttties are better for heavier filling, will stand up to urethane primer possibly better too.

Nothing wrong with old glaze in a tube if used correctly, ity dries super fast.

I laos reduce my high build urethane primer, especially on 2nd or 3rd applications, it then goes on nice and smooth, rather than rougher and more txtured, a good quality urethane primer surfacer sands real slick. So does lacquer based primer surfacer too, some guys use the urethane pirmer first, then the lacquer primer, if using acrylic enamel paints.............Fred, how would JB Weld be for things like reparing steering wheel cracks?

[randroid]

Norm,

In reference to Fred's last question, how do you clean the cracks prior to application of the filler?

-Randy

[Joe Flanagan]

So today I wiped all the parts down with a wax and grease remover and then went after the rust that had formed since I'd sandblasted. I sandblasted everything first some time ago, and then started body work and with handling the pieces, etc. over the last few weeks, I got a good amount of flash rust. So this morning I scrubbed all that off with phosphoric acid (Picklex 20). Some spots had become pretty well established and I had to take a stiff wire wheel on a grinder to them and then hit them with acid. I actually thought I'd be shooting primer today but no luck. The prep work took much longer than I thought, as usual. Also, it's ninety-something degrees here in Virginia and some ungodly level of humidity. Thunderstorms are in the forecast, too, so I figured I'd button everything up. Can't get back to it again until Thursday. Anyway, once I finish with the flash rust, I'll be sanding everything down with 180 grit paper and then spraying epoxy. What is the consensus on the need for a reducer with my primer? Very hot here and humid, as I said.

[Young Ed]

Joe plan accordingly the epoxy primer I used has to be coated over within 72hours or else sanded and another coat applied

[Joe Flanagan]

I have a seven day window for mine. Otherwise, it's as you said. Scuff and recoat.

[Joe Flanagan]

Alan,

Thanks for the tip on the DeKups liners. I had actually heard of them before but I'd already bought some conventional liners. I might just go back and get the DeVilbiss liners instead. If it reduces the cleanup, I'm all for it.

[alan32433]

Joe,

If you are using an epoxy primer directly to your metal, make sure it's compatible with the picklex. Most of the epoxies I use don't recommend etching or applying over self etching primers even. If you've already applied picklex make sure you neutralize the acids. I'm not sure how you do that without promoting a flash of rust. I'm in Florida so I understand the heat and humidity. I always have to add slow reducer to my high build 2K primers even with a 2.2 nozzle. The epoxy I use mixes 50% with catalyst and requires nothing else. The expoxies already dry slow enough to flow out real well. I have my car ready to paint, but I'm waiting for cooler weather around 75 degrees or so. When its hot, its way too hard to control all the variables and you usually end up with orange peel because the reducer evaporates before the paint levels. One more piece of advice on the high build primers in hot weather, have LOTS of ventilation. You need to make sure you carry the overspray off the car before it settles.

[1949P17BC]

From the what its worth department. Start with what paint you are going to shoot and then work backwards making sure everything you do is compatable, etching primer, , high build, cleaners etc.

Also, great step for cleaning after sanding is to power wash it. I know it takes more time, but you will be amazed out much cleaner the piece is vs wiping it down and ulitmatley how much faster it goes

[55 Fargo]

Joe,

If you are using an epoxy primer directly to your metal, make sure it's compatible with the picklex. Most of the epoxies I use don't recommend etching or applying over self etching primers even. If you've already applied picklex make sure you neutralize the acids. I'm not sure how you do that without promoting a flash of rust. I'm in Florida so I understand the heat and humidity. I always have to add slow reducer to my high build 2K primers even with a 2.2 nozzle. The epoxy I use mixes 50% with catalyst and requires nothing else. The expoxies already dry slow enough to flow out real well. I have my car ready to paint, but I'm waiting for cooler weather around 75 degrees or so. When its hot, its way too hard to control all the variables and you usually end up with orange peel because the reducer evaporates before the paint levels. One more piece of advice on the high build primers in hot weather, have LOTS of ventilation. You need to make sure you carry the overspray off the car before it settles.

I would agree, gotta be careful when used acid based metal prpeps. With Picklex, it is not recommended to use Etch primer over it, according to the manufacturer, epoxy primer is fine.

The bottom line is it must be good and dry, before shooting on any primer, as you do not neutralize Picklex with H2O, it simply needs to dry fully. Yes epoxy primer has a longer pot life than say 2 k urethane, the nice thing about epoxy is this, it has no ISOs, sprays on well,seals very well, the down side, it does not sand as easy as urethane, nor does it build as well as some of the high build urethane primers, or the mega build polyester primers

[Frank Blackstone]

On rust that appeared after sandblasting and before conditions got good enough to prime I used Rust Treatment(encapsulater) by Permatex. It's rumored that Walmart has a generic.

[Joe Flanagan]

I'm using PPG's epoxy primer and it is compatible with Picklex. It's not an acid etch primer. I'm staying with PPG products, from the wax and grease remover all the way to clear coat, so I shouldn't have any compatiblity issues. I will be shooting primer in 90 degree weather and intense humidity. I really don't have a choice. I don't have any place to store these body parts where they won't rust, so my plan is to get them painted start to finish and then store them while I work on the rest of the car. I'm using a reducer that is designed for hot weather. I hope everything works out. I was going to paint today but the weather was so unsettled I had to cancel. I will be painting in my garage but to do that, I have to move the car out to make room. The car is stripped to bare metal right now and treated with Picklex. Last thing I need is for it to get rained on. Tomorrow is supposed to be better so I'll try painting then.

[55 Fargo]

Once you have the sheet metal primed with epoxy primer, you should have a good seal against the elements.Get here covered well, you can then use filler right on top of this primer, then your K 36 urethane primer, can go on top for your build and surfacing, it should then block quite nicely......

Are you using DP 90, and K36 for your PPG primers?

[Frank Elder]

I know you don't want any sparks in a spray both homemade or other wise....but, could you run a couple dehumidifiers in your booth prior to painting?

[Joe Flanagan]

Fred,

Yes, I'm using DP 90 epoxy primer. I'm not using their K36 though. It's very expensive and I was told that their Omni line is very good and less money. So I'm using the Omni high build primer. Still have to buy base and clear, so I'm trying to save a little. Getting it sealed against the elements is what I really need to do. It's so hot and humid here, the metal rusts just sitting there in the sun. My wife is out of town at the moment and I have the fenders, hood, and trunk lid stored in the living room and dining room. This is what the house would look like if I were a bachelor. Anyway, I can shoot the high build pretty much right after the epoxy. Then I'll mount the parts on the car and block them.

Frankie,

I had the same idea, but I'll be painting with the garage doors open and I figured I'd be dehumidifying the entire Potomac watershed. I'll just live with it. I do have a reducer for hot weather, so that should help. We've been in the 90s every day for quite some time. I'm toying with ideas for cooling my air hoses so I get all the moisture out of the air. Thinking of runing twenty feet of copper line and then a trap.

[Joe Flanagan]

Digging by hand?

[Don Coatney]

Have you ever seen condensation on a copper tube, :

Have you tasted what comes out of the copper tube? We sell that stuff here in the Tennessee hills:cool:

[55 Fargo]

Have you tasted what comes out of the copper tube? We sell that stuff here in the Tennessee hills:cool:

I don't know Don, was watching Dirty Driving from Anderson Indiana:cool:, these folks was drinking hootch :eek:at there house party.

Aren't you from Indiana Don:D

[Plymouthy Adams]

I feel your pain on the diggin'...not sure if you have rocks in your area...I helped dig a grave one hot summer day on a mountainside in West Virginia..yes all by hand..it was three of us young punks per say and a handful of the old timers..they shaved the walls and we kept digging and tossing dirt..the rocks..pick-ax, sledgehammer..tough work..