Removing steering box

[Darbone85737]

I'm rebuilding the engine in my P18 and while it's out I want to straighten out a few other issues.  The steering in my car has a lot of play and driving it down the road at speed is a challenge.  I found that if I pull back on the steering wheel the shaft will come backward a few inches and seemingly disengage from the gear inside the box.  Is there an adjustment to the play in the box?

 

My question is how does the steering get removed from the car and what would cause this issue?  I have a repair manual but it was loaned to someone who hasn't returned it yet     I see there are 3 long bolts that hold the box to the car frame.  I also see there is a large nut under the box that attaches the box to the arms that move the control arms.

 

Any tips would be appreciated   

[Andydodge]

Are you sure the wheel comes back a FEW INCHES?......when I got my 1941 P11 Coupe, the steering wheel would move in/out about 1/2"..........that was very disconcerting , turned out to be the previous owners attempt at fixing the horn and he had not retightened the nut that holds the steering wheel onto the spline at the top of the column..........the wheel coming back a few inches scares the crap outa me ........lol.........the steering box is held onto the chassis via those triangular arranged 3 bolts, they go thru a plate on the outside of the chassis then a rubber pad then thru the chassis, thru another rubber pad on the inside of the chassis and then into the steering box.........the rubber pads can get badly affected by oil etc and become very sponge like making the steering box move and are definitely worth replacing........as for any movement in the box that lets the steering shaft move inches it sounds like you need to try and adjust the lower worm bearing at least although I can't imagine how it could have that much free play.......but am happy to be corrected..........I'd be checking the steering wheel nut first then the steering box adjustments and then the rubber pads......the large nut is the pitman arm nut, to remove it you undo the nut then use a puller to remove the pitman arm or if you are lucky a large hammer wacked on the side of the pitman arm can sometimes jolt it free......... to remove the steering box you have to jack the car quite a way off the ground to get enough clearance for the steering column to be removed from underneath with the box attached ......the steering wheel, gearshift mechanism etc all need to be removed to allow sufficient clearance to get the column out.....its a fiddly time consuming job......I'd be looking at whatever I could do before removing the box and column......I was able to replace both rubber steering box pads after undoing those 3 bolts and gently prising the box to the side to allow the removal and replacement.......fiddly but doable.......bw welcomear forum.....these guys are great......regards from downunder.....Andy Douglas

[Darbone85737]

Thanks very much for the information and the welcome.,Andy   Yes, everyone here has been great and very helpful. 

 

I know the problem is not at the steering wheel end because when it happens a section of the shaft is exposed.  Yes, it is scary and needs to be fixed. 

 

This is the first car I've done much work to.  I usually work on motorcycles  and I'm finding nothing is really straightforward with this thing.  I really need to get my shop manual back from the guy who has it 

 

Larry

[Dan Hiebert]

Andydodge has it down.  And, no, there should not be that much play.  Something is way out of whack.  I'd start simple- first course of action is to adjust your steering gears.  Service manual and previous threads on this forum cover that very well, so I won't rely on my memory here.  If you end up needing to rebuild the steering box, that is covered well here, too.  There may not be enough adjustment available to correct that much play.  A rebuild will correct a lot of that (a rebuild kit is generally less than $100).  But if your sector shaft and worm gears are worn too much, you'll need to replace those as no adjustment can correct that.  Good luck, and welcome to the forum.  I've had many problems remedied by this esteemed bunch, not to mention the entertainment value.   

[Don Coatney]

I suggest you also check your tie rods and all steering components for excessive wear.

[Darbone85737]

I played around with the car while having coffee this morning.  I got the box loose from the frame but will need a puller for the pittman arm. I also loosened the collar around the column at the box.   I went into the car and pulled back on the wheel thinking I could take a picture for more information. When I did I heard a clunk and went back to find the shaft had pulled out of the box and was lying on top of the control arm.   I can't see how the splined end of the shaft is secured into the box other than by that collar tightening the column around the steering box 

 

Edited April 22, 2014 by Darbone85737

[Ricky Luke]

Thats scary...

 

Here's a link to part of a 1940 manual I scanned. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/43890057/1940%20Chrysler%20steering.pdf

 

Hope it helps.

 

Rick

[Dodgeb4ya]

OMG !!!!!!.........        

Lucky you decided to look into your loose steering issue. 

[DonaldSmith]

It's the old comedy schtick- "Here, you take the wheel!"

[casper50]

Watch this.  lol

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkgAZhuC4uM

[Darbone85737]

Yeah, huh ?  I can't believe the knucklehead I got this thing from didn't disclose it.  I had driven the car around before had to take the engine out for a rebuild.  Other than some side-to-side play (which I had in my original 1949 car and took to be kinda normal)  I never noticed the steering wheel and shaft could be pulled back like that. 

 

I did manage to get the box off of the pittman arm and took the plate off. Inside the bore there is what looks to be a key that fits into a keyway in the shaft.  There seems to be nothing  else to hold the shaft in the bore of the steering box.  I'm pretty certain there are parts missing here.

[Plymouthy Adams]

I hate to see this type stuff and I am very glad the owner here detected this before and not after an accident...this gentlemen should well be a reminder to all of you that have bought cars that a good visual inspection of all suspension/steering parts be performed and at minimum test torque values of attaching hardware.  If you have not yet inspected your car or rechecked values after a repair...please do not put if off much longer...you have a lot riding on another man's workmanship

[Mark Haymond]

After seeing this steering I would want to pull some drums and check the brakes.

[Darbone85737]

After seeing this steering I would want to pull some drums and check the brakes.

Already did.  The car had recent brake work and drove/stopped nicely.  I did notice some corrosion on the metal brake lines so they're being replaced.   Does need shocks though 

[Plymouthy Adams]

Now would be a good time to consider removing our upper shock mount from the A-arm to the chassis..the difference is night and day in driving and handling..

[Darbone85737]

Thanks for the suggestion. MAybe once I get this steering thing figured out and fixed

[Andydodge]

Larry...........congratulations.......YOU win the prize!!.........lol........seriously tho I have never heard of a steering shaft coming off the worm.......I did not think that was even possible without removing the shaft with the worm and doing it on the bench.........mate I'd be buying a couple of lottery tickets.....lol........sounds like a good reason to go thru the rest of the front end, steering, brakes, suspension...etc.....you are indeed a very lucky camper......thanks for this have certainly learnt something today.....regards, andyd

[Darbone85737]

..    Thanks.  Now it's off to figure out a fix or find a new steering box and shaft to replace it with.   What are the chances my luck will hold ?  LOL 

Larry

[RobertKB]

Larry...........congratulations.......YOU win the prize!!.........lol........seriously tho I have never heard of a steering shaft coming off the worm.......I did not think that was even possible without removing the shaft with the worm and doing it on the bench.........mate I'd be buying a couple of lottery tickets.....lol........sounds like a good reason to go thru the rest of the front end, steering, brakes, suspension...etc.....you are indeed a very lucky camper......thanks for this have certainly learnt something today.....regards, andyd

 

Gotta agree here. Lucky lucky!! The worm is a very tight pressed on fit onto the end of the shaft. I cannot even comprehend how that steering shaft could come loose like that. Don't bother buying lottery tickets because I think you have used up all your luck. Shame on the previous owner if he knew of the problem and did not inform you. You are lucky not to be a statistic!

[Dodgeb4ya]

I just pressed one apart a couple weeks ago and yes they are a very tight press fit.

I don't know how the worm came loose from the tube although the worm and tube on the 1947 chrysler "8" steering gear was improperly pressed together from the factory!

The keyway was not properly aligned when the worm and tube were pressed together.......

[Darbone85737]

Thanks for that-  The key on my shaft is much thinner than shown in your picture.  I'll try removing the worm gear and see if I can press the tube back in with a new key

Edited April 23, 2014 by Darbone85737

[Dodgeb4ya]

There is no separate key to insert. The worm gear has the key cast into it....

I don't think you can safely fix your worm gear and tube in a case like yours. Someone might have already pressed it together improperly. You will have to see. Be careful with repairs on worn or damaged steering worm and tube parts.

Bob

Edited April 22, 2014 by Dodgeb4ya

[JerseyHarold]

This all makes me wonder how many cars with sloppy steering and good front ends have a worm gear/keyway issue like this.

[deathbound]

Are you sure the wheel comes back a FEW INCHES?......when I got my 1941 P11 Coupe, the steering wheel would move in/out about 1/2"..........that was very disconcerting , turned out to be the previous owners attempt at fixing the horn and he had not retightened the nut that holds the steering wheel onto the spline at the top of the column..........the wheel coming back a few inches scares the crap outa me ........lol.........the steering box is held onto the chassis via those triangular arranged 3 bolts, they go thru a plate on the outside of the chassis then a rubber pad then thru the chassis, thru another rubber pad on the inside of the chassis and then into the steering box.........the rubber pads can get badly affected by oil etc and become very sponge like making the steering box move and are definitely worth replacing........as for any movement in the box that lets the steering shaft move inches it sounds like you need to try and adjust the lower worm bearing at least although I can't imagine how it could have that much free play.......but am happy to be corrected..........I'd be checking the steering wheel nut first then the steering box adjustments and then the rubber pads......the large nut is the pitman arm nut, to remove it you undo the nut then use a puller to remove the pitman arm or if you are lucky a large hammer wacked on the side of the pitman arm can sometimes jolt it free......... to remove the steering box you have to jack the car quite a way off the ground to get enough clearance for the steering column to be removed from underneath with the box attached ......the steering wheel, gearshift mechanism etc all need to be removed to allow sufficient clearance to get the column out.....its a fiddly time consuming job......I'd be looking at whatever I could do before removing the box and column......I was able to replace both rubber steering box pads after undoing those 3 bolts and gently prising the box to the side to allow the removal and replacement.......fiddly but doable.......bw welcomear forum.....these guys are great......regards from downunder.....Andy Douglas

 

 

 

Andy, all very good advice, except I would not take a large hammer & whack the pitman arm side of the sector shaft. This will force it against the adjustment screw/cover plate & bend the plate. Use of a puller should be the only way the remove the pitman arm. To re-install the pitman arm may take a bit of "persuasion" from a BFH, but I would do it with the cover off & only enough to get the nut started & let it do the rest of the work.

Edited April 24, 2014 by deathbound

[Dan Hiebert]

  Certainly won't be able to adjust that into submission.