Lead additive

[radioguy7]

One can go to Sears and buy a gas grill and then burn charcoal. The Grill could care less as the Charcoal is not required and does nothing extra. But by using this the grills owner boost there personal comfort level and it makes them feel good.

One can go to Autozone and buy lead additive for their favorite car engine. The car engine cares a lot since the lead additive reduces wear on it's valves and has been used in avaition fuel for a very very long time. By using these additives the car owners boost their personal comfort level and it will be a longer interval before their valves need any attention.

[grey beard]

I really hate to break up all this fun and humorour palaverin' here, but I remember quite well working for Ford Division in the early sixties and seventies as a service school instructor. Memory says the only reason lead was dropped from gasoline was because it would instantly foul catalytic convertors. Ir had nothing to do with engine wear, and in point of fact, Ford Division saw more valve and guide wear after lead was dropped from gasoline, because lead is an excellent lubricant as well as a cost-effective octane booster. The removal of lead in fuel was due only to the need for catalytic convertors to meet EPA standards by manufacturers. Nothing more, nothing less.

AND, the Don is right again. If use of this stuff makes you feel good, go ahead and plunk your bucks down for it - MMO, other snake oilk, ATF, etc. Had a friend who carried a diesel fuel tank around in the back of his pickup. Always put a gallon of diesel in with each gasoline tank fill-up. Prolly' did him more good than the truck. There is simply no logical reason why anyone should need to add oil/gas addatives to their vehicle, other than the placebo-like effect it has on your own psychic. Were these products of any true value, the manufacturers would demand that we use them in order to keep warranties intact.

Having said all that, I believe it may be wise for owners of older engines like our flatheads to use the diesel-rated oils that still contain zinc. Diesel engine lubricating requirements are much higher than gasoline engines, due to the greater compression ratios and bearing loads, as well as the high carbon atmosphere diesel engine oils must live in. Usually costs no more, and cannot hurt anything, so you are not spending money on diamond studded collars. JMHO

[Frank Elder]

I just happened to find a RARE mopar upper radiator hose collar at my local pet store, still in it's original packaging...I could probably start the bidding at around a grand on E-Bay, but Jim S. PM me and I'm sure we can work out something! :eek:

[David Strieb]

I don't believe in snakeoil, but I do believe in marvel mystery oil as an upper engine lube. In my '36 Chrysler, I use a system that works off engine vaccum and despensenses the proper amount of oil at the base of the carb.

You don't have to buy diesel oil to get zinc, I use a product called ZDDPlus with every oil change, www.kirbanperformance.com. It's my understanding that newer engines with roller type lifters don't need the zinc, but engines with flat tappets (Lhead 6's) need the zinc additive to prevent the cam lobes from becoming flat.

[T120]

My 48 Dodge has an oiler (Redex).It was installed back in the day by a previous owner.It's mounted on the firewall and was connected to the vacuum line.I cleaned it up and left it in place.I disconnected it though.

[greg g]

Couple questions here to the folks who are doing the upper culinder lube.

1) What exactly are you lubricating? Seems to me when I had my engine appart there were no moving parts above the piston. Is it supposed to lube the valve stems/guides? Can't see how they are sealed from the intake and exhaust gases, so what does oil in the intake charge lubricating? I always thought htese top oilers were for Chevy OHV sixesand other OHV units that had notoriously poor lubrication to the rockers. Compression rings get their lube oil traveling up and down the bore. the top of the pistion doesn't need lubrication, the oil is burned during ignition and would go out the exhaust as smoke. Is smoke a lubricant? I removed my muffler bearing years back at the advice of an old time mechanic at a roadside gas station on route 301 in South Carolina. He said it was leaking when we got gas.

Next discussion, Using diesel rated oil in gas engines. I just read several sites that folks using diesel formulas, because they have a higher level of ZDDP zinc, may be ding more harm than good. this because diesel formulas contain way too much detergent for gas motors.

I am using Traveller Fleet from Tractor Supply Co. oil in my car to get the zinc. The lable says good for all engines, and the service rating certainly exceeds the rating from 46 or 56 for that mater. Been in there for two oil changes and seems to be doing no harm so, I uess if it feels good I will continue to do it.

Any thoughts about diesel oil from this august assembly???

[radioguy7]

Confusious say, Shiney car does not make one a mechanic, only full of gas like shiney car.

[Norm's Coupe]

As mentioned, since our engines have hardened valve seats, from the factory, you don't need a lead additive.

Greg is also correct about the add on oiler's. Those were primarily used for cars with OHV's. Had to install one on my 58 Chevy's back in the early 60's. Don't know why you would need one our flatheads.

[T120]

..I didn't figure the oiler was serving a useful purpose,that why it's disconnected,it looks cool though.There's a number of members on this forum that put a lot of miles on their old flathead sixes and I value their opinions.

[TodFitch]

Couple questions here to the folks who are doing the upper culinder lube.

1) What exactly are you lubricating? Seems to me when I had my engine appart there were no moving parts above the piston. Is it supposed to lube the valve stems/guides? Can't see how they are sealed from the intake and exhaust gases, so what does oil in the intake charge lubricating? I always thought htese top oilers were for Chevy OHV sixesand other OHV units that had notoriously poor lubrication to the rockers. Compression rings get their lube oil traveling up and down the bore. the top of the pistion doesn't need lubrication, the oil is burned during ignition and would go out the exhaust as smoke. Is smoke a lubricant? I removed my muffler bearing years back at the advice of an old time mechanic at a roadside gas station on route 301 in South Carolina. He said it was leaking when we got gas.

I don't have a top oiler and haven't personally seen the need.

But I do remember an article in Skinned Knuckles by a fellow that used to be an engineer (I believe chemical engineer) in the auto industry. Apparently there are different types of oil and when burned the can result in different byproducts. And, apparently some of the "top oils" are ones that when burned can help in some way control or reduce carbon buildup in the combustion chamber. So apparently there could be some good to having a top oiler setup.

The article was from several years ago and it would take me some time to dig it out. If I find some time I will go looking.

[Lancer]

Okay, so does anyone know if my 53 Desoto V8 Hemi have hardened seats?

Thanks.

Lance

[RobertKB]

Lance, I'm sure somebody does know.....just not me. Can anyone answer Lance's question? Regarding additives, the only one I use is STP added to my oil. When hot my oil pressure at idle stays at 40 lbs with the STP but drops considerably lower without it. Not sure it really makes a difference but I feel good adding it.

[James_Douglas]

All the guys I know running radial engines use MMO in their gas....

James

[James_Douglas]

David,

I had the chance to talk with one of the men that run the oil standards tests for the oil companies.

They run many of the tests on in-line chevy 6 cylinders with solid lifters in a controlled environment. Every part of the engine is measured and checked before and after each test.

They have found ZERO evidence of any issues using oil that does not have high levels of ZDDP.

I have asked and asked but to date I have not seen any science backing up the claims that old cars need a ZDDP additive.

If someone has any science on it I would love to see it. I do mean science not opinion or anecdotal evidence.

Best, James

[David Strieb]

David,

I had the chance to talk with one of the men that run the oil standards tests for the oil companies.

They run many of the tests on in-line chevy 6 cylinders with solid lifters in a controlled environment. Every part of the engine is measured and checked before and after each test.

They have found ZERO evidence of any issues using oil that does not have high levels of ZDDP.

I have asked and asked but to date I have not seen any science backing up the claims that old cars need a ZDDP additive.

If someone has any science on it I would love to see it. I do mean science not opinion or anecdotal evidence.

Best, James

Then don't use it.

[Norm's Coupe]

Lance,

Don't take this to the bank, but I believe I heard that all engines built prior to the late 60's had hardened seats. Think they stopped putting those in cars the same time they started putting catalytic converters in cars. So, you should be safe with a 53 engine.

[Norm's Coupe]

David,

I had the chance to talk with one of the men that run the oil standards tests for the oil companies.

They run many of the tests on in-line chevy 6 cylinders with solid lifters in a controlled environment. Every part of the engine is measured and checked before and after each test.

They have found ZERO evidence of any issues using oil that does not have high levels of ZDDP.

I have asked and asked but to date I have not seen any science backing up the claims that old cars need a ZDDP additive.

If someone has any science on it I would love to see it. I do mean science not opinion or anecdotal evidence.

Best, James

James, I didn't talk to anyone like you did from an oil company. However, I did read an article in a rod magazine about a year or so ago. In that article the guy from the oil company who wrote the article said it was only needed in cars used in racing. Said you didn't need the ZDDP in your everyday driver, or in stock engines in old cars.

[Don Coatney]

James' date=' I didn't talk to anyone like you did from an oil company. However, I did read an article in a rod magazine about a year or so ago. In that article the guy from the oil company who wrote the article said it was only needed in cars used in racing. Said you didn't need the ZDDP in your everyday driver, or in stock engines in old cars.[/quote']

There you go James. That is as sceintific as it gets:D

[James_Douglas]

Don,

All I can say is that I talked with a friend of mine that works in the oil products side at Chevron. He found the independent ASTM/ISO guys that do the oil certification for all the US oil companies.

We had a phone conference with them and they explained their testing procedures and their conclusions.

The one thing that they warned of was that many of the replacement lifters they had purchased did NOT meet the minimum Rockwell hardness when they tested them. They had to go through several sets so their tests were apples to apples and equal to the factory rockers.

This goes along with a person I know who does MGB/MGA restorations. Some years back he said he started having cam problems. At first he thought it was oil. it turned out to be lifters that had a Rockwell of mush.

Most of the evidence I have read tends to support the theory that the problems encountered which have given raise to the mythology of ZDDP can be traced to poor metallurgy on the part of lifters and or cams. Since we have seen a large increase in these parts being made out of the US in the last 10 years and at the same time the ZDDP myth has been building...I have to ask if it is a coincidence?

James

[Lancer]

Thanks Norm! I guess I could always ask my local machine shop, I am sure they would know as they have built many of these motors. Lance

Lance' date='

Don't take this to the bank, but I believe I heard that all engines built prior to the late 60's had hardened seats. Think they stopped putting those in cars the same time they started putting catalytic converters in cars. So, you should be safe with a 53 engine.[/quote']

[Norm's Coupe]

Don,

All I can say is that I talked with a friend of mine that works in the oil products side at Chevron. He found the independent ASTM/ISO guys that do the oil certification for all the US oil companies.

We had a phone conference with them and they explained their testing procedures and their conclusions.

The one thing that they warned of was that many of the replacement lifters they had purchased did NOT meet the minimum Rockwell hardness when they tested them. They had to go through several sets so their tests were apples to apples and equal to the factory rockers.

This goes along with a person I know who does MGB/MGA restorations. Some years back he said he started having cam problems. At first he thought it was oil. it turned out to be lifters that had a Rockwell of mush.

Most of the evidence I have read tends to support the theory that the problems encountered which have given raise to the mythology of ZDDP can be traced to poor metallurgy on the part of lifters and or cams. Since we have seen a large increase in these parts being made out of the US in the last 10 years and at the same time the ZDDP myth has been building...I have to ask if it is a coincidence?

James

I can believe it about having new parts that aren't properly hardened. We bought my first wife a brand new 83 Plymouth. Almost from day one, I thought I heard a slight knock in the engine. Of course when I mentioned it to the dealer not long after, they said it was ok. Well..........after about 1,000 miles or so, the knock got louder, so I took it back again and complained. That time they looked inside the engine. The cam was worn. They replaced the cam. Said the original cam was not hardened at all.

[p10plymouth]

We all want NOS parts for our cars.. from orginal type wires caps rotors, plugs..the newer nos we can find we want...BUT one thing we will never have is nos gas... we are running a faster burning fuel... It took me a year to fine tune my car to get it where it is.. (float adjustments ,timing fuel mixtures. heat shields ) any way with a higher flash point after all I did I was told adding a gas additive (lead additive ) will lower the flash point ...Will it ..I do not know .. Next 90 degree day ... Its going in . for me....

[BobT-47P15]

I used to put in "Instead O Lead", from time to time.

Couldn't tell any obvious difference in performance.

Now, WalMart quit selling the stuff. So have not used any for

a while. But, I don't feel it is really needed. Just did it to make

me feel better - just in case it did make any difference.

[Captain Neon]

I don't believe in snakeoil, but I do believe in marvel mystery oil as an upper engine lube. In my '36 Chrysler, I use a system that works off engine vaccum and despensenses the proper amount of oil at the base of the carb.

You don't have to buy diesel oil to get zinc, I use a product called ZDDPlus with every oil change, www.kirbanperformance.com. It's my understanding that newer engines with roller type lifters don't need the zinc, but engines with flat tappets (Lhead 6's) need the zinc additive to prevent the cam lobes from becoming flat.

Thanks for this information. I can now go back to my preferred Havoline 10w40 with this additive, rather than using Rotella T.

[Norm's Coupe]

To begin with, lowering the flash point will only cause the gas to ignite faster, not slower. If you want it to flash slower, you have to raise the flash point.

That said. I have a bottle of Lead Additive in the garage that I used before I found out I didn't need it for the valves. However, I don't know what chemicals are in it. But.......unless it has something like Tri-Chlor in it (you don't need much of it to raise a flash point), I doubt that it will increase (slow) the flash point. You aren't adding that much to make a real difference.

Also remember this. When these cars were new we had higher octane gas (converts to lower flash point) than we do today. You could get engine knock with fuel with a higher flash point.