218 valve guide up or down question. Again new vs. old technology

[Flat Jack]

Hello again. I addition to my valve to guide clearance question another one pops up. In searching the technical section I found the valve guide install procedure with a photo showing exhaust guides counterbore up and intake down.  I bought new valves and guides from Andy Bernbaum Parts and since for me anything that can go wrong will i got 4 extra guides. They came in a open package of 4, a sealed package of 6 and a second sealed package of 6. These where all put in a baggy with a single part number. I opened the first bag of 6 and they where the same as my extra 4 with a nice long lead on one end and sharp shoulder about 5/8" down from the end on the other. They where not counterbored, they where countersunk about 1/16 of an inch at about 45 degrees,  like you would do for a flathead screw. I did not even consider installing any upside down since that sharp shoulder looked like a problem waiting to happen. I installed 10 and then opened the last package of 6, installed my last two then noticed they where lacking the counter sunk inside. So I wondered if these two bags where supposed to be 6 exhaust and 6 intake and my 4 extras where just random. A quick call to the Andy Bernbaum I was told all there guides have the same part # and come from the same bin. Any difference would either be a design change or a vender change and all their guides install the same direction with the lead going down. I would like to hear from the forum on this one.   Thanks from the new member Flat Jack

[kencombs]

They do all have the same P/N, at least at the places I looked last time I bought some.   One end is tapered, the other is reduced diameter for a bit.   But all were counter-bored on one end.  And, that counter bore goes up on the exhaust.     Mine are installed per the book, not vendor info.

 

EDIT:   I left out a key word in this response, the P/N was the same at SOME of the places I looked.   But after further browsing through catalogs I found that the originals were often the same and required reaming to fit the exhaust side.   Newer machining technologies produced a part that usually requires no reaming as the exhaust P/N is .002in larger ID than the intake.

 

I ordered mine a couple of years back, I think Perfect Circle brand.   Two P/Ns, two boxes of six, look identical except for the ID.  I would expect any supplier selling one PN to require reaming.

 

Take a look at Rock Auto.  Great lookup tool, pics of the parts and full dimensions on some, like these guides.  

 

I think some suppliers are just blindly ordering from 'someplace' without reqard to quality.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 23, 2023 by kencombs

[Flat Jack]

Thanks Kencombs for replying. I looked under technical tab/ valve guide install and looked at the photo. The bottom guide you can see the I.D. appears to be larger for a ways down the guide where the top one isn't. My are not like this. They are the same I.D. all the way though with just a slight 45 degree camphor ( countersink ) about 1/16" deep on one end, the reduced dia. end, the shoulder on this end is so sharp I did slice my finger with it. My shop manual reprint doesn't say boo about installing guides, hence the question. So am I reading the photo wrong or does the end with the reduced dia. have a increased ID. for a ways down the guide? And did you read my other question on applying 75 year old specs to new aftermarket valves no doubt made with different alloys maybe even stainless. Curious about your take on this. As the N.O.S. stuff is getting used up and after market taking over someone somewhere my have to start producing new specs. On the other hand this iron won't be around much longer so I guess it may be a waste of time. Winging it may be O.K. for such a low tech engine. Appreciate your thoughts and please look at and respond to my other question Flat Jack

 

 

[kencombs]

12 hours ago, Flat Jack said:

Thanks Kencombs for replying. I looked under technical tab/ valve guide install and looked at the photo. The bottom guide you can see the I.D. appears to be larger for a ways down the guide where the top one isn't. My are not like this. They are the same I.D. all the way though with just a slight 45 degree camphor ( countersink ) about 1/16" deep on one end, the reduced dia. end, the shoulder on this end is so sharp I did slice my finger with it. My shop manual reprint doesn't say boo about installing guides, hence the question. So am I reading the photo wrong or does the end with the reduced dia. have a increased ID. for a ways down the guide? And did you read my other question on applying 75 year old specs to new aftermarket valves no doubt made with different alloys maybe even stainless. Curious about your take on this. As the N.O.S. stuff is getting used up and after market taking over someone somewhere my have to start producing new specs. On the other hand this iron won't be around much longer so I guess it may be a waste of time. Winging it may be O.K. for such a low tech engine. Appreciate your thoughts and please look at and respond to my other question Flat Jack

 

 

I edited my earlier response as I was short on time when I posted and left out some important detail. 

 

IMHO, the clearance specs have more to do with block design, heat retention, expansion etc that with the valve material.  

 

What are your measured stem to guide clearances as installed?  

 

 

[Flat Jack]

Morning Kencombs. Just went out and drove the intake guides out, softened the sharp step, flipped them and drove them back in. I sure don't feel warm and fuzzy about these valve guides. If the counterbore is supposed to hold a little oil to lube the stems , top for exhaust and bottom for intake I can't see that happening with this valve guide. Sure wish I would have ordered guides from VPW since theirs come 6 intake and 6 exhaust and generally need no reaming, according to other sites I found just recently. At $60 a set that's exactly what I just spent on one reamer from Woodward Equipment.  Since this is somewhat of a learning site should I try and get photos of these guides?   

      On the other issue the stems on my new after market valves mic at .3403 to .3406, right in the middle of the given range. I put my valve guides at about .3426. Should be fine for the intakes. I ordered a .3435 ream for the exhaust. That will leave them half thousands under minimum but for a truck whose working days are over I hope that will work.

       Thank you again for your response.    I'll keep in touch as this $3000 engine project continues 

[John-T-53]

Sounds like you have the wrong guides. How bout some photos?

 

There should be a counter bore, not just a chamfered end as you describe. The counter bore aligns with the step on the valve stem.

 

All guides are same design, exhaust counter bore up, intake counter bore down. 

 

There are stem clearance specs that need to be set correctly - whether using a reamer or guide hone, and there are specs for how far down from the deck they are installed. 

 

 

 

 

[Flat Jack]

Thank you john t 53. I don't believe there wrong, just different. Some whipper snapper engineer reducing costs couldn't see why the extra step of counterboring was no longer needed given the new metal compositions of valves and guides. Face it guys NOS stuff is mostly gone now. 

[Flat Jack]

Couple more photos. Check out the wrist pin bore in the old piston and also the lack of the slit in the skirt in the new one. Then a couple of the beast and a few out of order. I am not a wizz at posting photos.   Flat Jack

[John-T-53]

I see the chamfer - is the bore below the chamfer larger than the valve stem for a short section, or is it the same ID all the way through?

 

I sourced new guides from SBI (though the machine shop's supplier) about 10 years ago...

 

I can't remember the exact reason for the counter bore, think it was to create an air cushion which acts like a "seal" since there are no stem seals on these engines. 

 

Your valve seat contact looks perfect.

[Flat Jack]

Thanks. And no, they are the same ID top to bottom. I bought a .3435 piloted ream and ran through the exhaust and maybe took out a little. I did nothing with the intake. I really believe the countersunk ones are exhaust and the square top ones are intake. Both probably go pointed end down and neither need reaming. The warehouse guy likely new this, the salesman did not. VPW sells intake or exhaust, same part no. specify what you want. Rock Auto sells intake or exhaust with different part no's. By the way, Andy Bernbaum Parts has a flat shipping rate of $61.00, ouch! My intakes went pointed end up ( The second time ) and that's how they are staying. Done deal now. 

      Just plasti gauged my rod bearings and got .001 to .0015. Broke in right from start-up, perfect. Block goes to the shop on 1-8-24 to get bored .060 over. Block also has a .010 to .015 hump in the center so will likely have .020 taken off. Haven't decided on the head yet, seems flat. Been looking everywhere trying to find how thick a unmolested head should be with no success. What do you think on shaving the head? When talking .030 your talking less than 1/32 inch in laymanns terms. A guy says on another forum on a stock bore engine for every .010 cut you raise the compression .1. A .030 cut you would go from 6.6 to 6.9. Is that worth $125? Thanks for your time John-T-53 hope to hear from you soon.   Flat Jack

[kencombs]

I'd be really careful on the valve stem clearance.   Too tight and they will stick when hot.  That .3435 reamed size is .001 less that the as-shipped size for an exhaust guide.  At least the ones I've seen and ordered.  Intakes are .03425 as shipped.    I haven't looked recently but I think the exhaust spec is a .002 clearance. 

 

A couple of years ago I had 4 heads on hand no two of them seemed to be the same thickness when measured at the same places.   I had mine cut .060, we'll se how it goes.    do know valve to head clearance if fine at that.

 

As to 'is it worth it?"   Look at the factory HP ratings over the years.  Steady, but slow increase and nothing changed, except compression ratio.  I started with a 56 Plymouth head, cut it .060, did a little chamber cleanup around the intake opening and cced the head.   By my calculation I'll be around 8.8-8.9 compression up from a claimed 8 stock.

 

My hope is to realize the 135 that was advertised back then.

 

I assume the 'hump' in your block is the head mounting surface, not main bore?  If so, odds are that the head is a mirror image.

 

Edited January 3 by kencombs

[Flat Jack]

Will someone please explain to me how to use the search feature. I must be doing something wrong. I read a couple questions from members who where reprimanded for asking a question that has been discussed at nauseam instead of searching the topic. I have a question on my rear main seal I'm afraid to ask and I find the search bar on this forum useless.     Flat Jack

[Plymouthy Adams]

I use the + in front of the words I want in my search return.....even at that...on the returns you can then further use the now available advanced search options offered with your returns.   Words also must be 3 letters minimum

 

In your search box....+valve +guide nets some 362 or so entries   +valve +guide +install narrows it to 38...I did not but could have used orientation...but many would likely not use that descriptor...

Edited January 24 by Plymouthy Adams

[Veemoney]

I attached a PDF doc with screen shots of how I do it.

• First screen shot shows adding the Words "Rear Main Seal Replacement" to the word search box
  • Also shows using the pull down next to your input words to select "Topics" to limit the search to topics and not the default "everywhere".
  • You have to initiate the search using the magnifying glass symbol before you can get to the advanced options shown on the second screenshot.
• Second screenshot shows the "More search options" tab directly below the "Search Again" box. when you select "More search options you should see the third screenshot with more options.
• Third screenshot shows the following I choose:
  • Topics
  • Content titles and Body
  • All of my search term words
• Hit the search content bottom at the bottom of the page That will provide topics you are looking for.

Hope this helps

 

How I Search PD15-24.pdf

Edited January 24 by Veemoney
Deleted Word doc and added it as PDF doc.

[ggdad1951]

1 hour ago, Flat Jack said:

Will someone please explain to me how to use the search feature. I must be doing something wrong. I read a couple questions from members who where reprimanded for asking a question that has been discussed at nauseam instead of searching the topic. I have a question on my rear main seal I'm afraid to ask and I find the search bar on this forum useless.     Flat Jack

there is a sticky on the page to help as well I did back in 2018...I think it still is relevant.

 

 

[Flat Jack]

Ok thanks everyone. Most of that went over my head but I will play with it latter. Meantime I will just do a google search where often times this forum comes up as a result.   I so far have found little useful info on my rear main seal problem so I search on.   Flat Jack

[kencombs]

I use Google, advanced search.   Much better that most any site's search,

Go here:  https://www.google.com/advanced_search

fill in words or phrase the specify the site you want to search in that parameter.

 

[Flat Jack]

Thanks KenCombs for the info and the link, worked good with 1948 Dodge 218 rear main seal install on one line and simply p15-d24.com on another. Finally found some useful info. Some interesting notes. When you very first responded to me you mentioned Rock Auto. I've bought from them before but they are not the first place that comes to mind. I went there right away and they had most of the stuff I just ordered from Andy Bernbaum for less money and WHAYYY less shipping. Shortly thereafter the valves and other parts where out of stock and still are. My basic rebuilt kit was Clegg from Auto parts Warehouse, now trying to find their website they seem to both be gone. In 52dodges' quest for similar info he stated the seals he received from VPW were marked 1952 and rock hard. Crap, I bought mine from VPW so I went to check, yep, hard as a rock. Any way to soften the rubber? Another member told him the newer neoprene one won't fit without machine work. Another said fel-pro makes them, part number BS 6300. Out of stock every where so I called fel-pro 1-800 number and the lady looked it up and said antique part-manufacture discontinued. Guess I will be using the rope that came in my gasket kit. My pistons and bearings were Seal Power. Could not find a website for them. Some stuff still on Rock Auto and a lot of bits and pieces on e-bay. Never a good sign. Bought 21 new head bolts from Andy Bernbaum @ $ 3.25(the 9/16 head style) Little longer than what I had so I called AB to see if they ever had any complaints? " no none at all". Also the threads are shorter so I now have 1/8 inch of shoulder past the bottom of the head with .050 milled off. Looks like I will be re-using my old ones after all. Bought 4 NOS rod bolts from VPW. Thought NOS meant "new old stock" They were used and fit loose in the rods. Guess it's ok just have to watch and make sure I don't have to go fishing. Has not been a good experience with these parts supplying experts. The parts kit came with 6  1 5/8" welch plugs, I need 7. I did get an extra smaller one but none for the head. I'm out of room, later.  Flat Jack

[kencombs]

Head bolt substitute is the shorter ones for Chevy 283-350.   IF they are  little long a grade 8 washer will space them up.  And 

not a bad idea anyway as it prevents bolt head/head galling if tighened dry

[Flat Jack]

Hey guys. Is this normal? Sealed Power shells. Ignore and move on?   Flat  Jack

[Matt Wilson]

21 minutes ago, Flat Jack said:

Hey guys. Is this normal? Sealed Power shells. Ignore and move on?   Flat  Jack

Many aftermarket bearings have been made that way, but it's not correct.  It will restrict oil flow to the bearing.  You'll need to take a file or Dremel tool with appropriate attachment and open up the hole in the bearing to match the oblong shape of the hole in the engine block.

[Flat Jack]

Thank you Matt. I remembered I had my old shells somewhere so I went and found them. So now I at least have a guide. A dremel will be my weapon of choice. Thanks again.  Flat Jack

[Flat Jack]

Hello again. Couple more things. Is there a o-ring or gasket that goes where the oil pickup screen attaches to the pickup tube, seems awful loose. While looking through the gasket kit (fel pro) found a package with two o-rings and a note telling to use them to make two pieces 1 1/4 inch long and use for seals under the front main cap. Generic directions or for real. Hate to pull the cap just to check. If so seal from what? Wouldn't this be inside the pan and/or behind the timing chain cover?   Thanks   Flat Jack

[Merle Coggins]

I don’t believe there is an o-ring at the pick-up screen connection. As for that other o-ring instruction, that is correct. The rear main cap has a groove on either side that needs to be filled with pieces of that o-ring to seal the seam between the cap and the block. This is part of the rear main seal system as the cap is flush with the back of the block. You don’t want oil seeping out through that seam, which isn’t captured by the rear main seal. 

[Flat Jack]

Thanks Merle but the note says the two strips go under the front main cap.   Jack