A833 advice regarding clutch adjustment

[belvedere666]

I’ve searched the other threads on the a833 and I haven’t seen any sort of info specifically on clutch adjustment after the swap.

i put an a833 into my 50.

I was able to get the car round the block for a couple laps and then the clutch pedal just fell to the ground. I can pull it up manually but it doesn’t pop back up.

Anyone have any expert advice on how to fix this?

[MarcDeSoto]

I don't know what an A833 is, but do you have the clutch return spring installed?  

[47 dodge 1.5 ton]

What pressure plate did you use? I have had trouble with diaphragm pressure plates sucking to the floor at high RPM. A floor stop post solved that issue adjusted just below disengage point (may take a few tries).

  Do you still have pressure? If so, sounds like you need more return spring and a maybe a stop to keep from over extending. Regardless, issue is in linkage, throw out bearing, pressure plate, not the 833.

 I have no experience with a 833 behind a flathead. If yours has OD, sounds like a nice set up.

Edited January 7, 2022 by 47 dodge 1.5 ton

[belvedere666]

4 hours ago, 47 dodge 1.5 ton said:

What pressure plate did you use? I have had trouble with diaphragm pressure plates sucking to the floor at high RPM. A floor stop post solved that issue adjusted just below disengage point (may take a few tries).

  Do you still have pressure? If so, sounds like you need more return spring and a maybe a stop to keep from over extending. Regardless, issue is in linkage, throw out bearing, pressure plate, not the 833.

 I have no experience with a 833 behind a flathead. If yours has OD, sounds like a nice set up.

 

stock pressure plate and throw out bearing. Replaced clutch disk with a 9.25 23 spline. Original is 9.25 10 spline. So it’s a perfect fit.

I cant get the clutch pedal to release the clutch disc.

the A833 I have IS the one with overdrive.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[47 dodge 1.5 ton]

Then you have (2) issues? Not enough travel to disengage clutch & pedal sticking to floor when you use it? 

  As said, never tried one on these engines but am very familiar with 4spd mopars. Kind of sounds like you don’t have enough ratio in your linkage for clutch disengagement and you have a vey light return spring or bind not allowing pedal to release. The pressure plate should have enough spring tension to keep pedal off the floor unless centrifugal force is holding down while spinning. Not sure I am following 100% , can you shift gears without grinding?

[wayfarer]

Can you get someone to crawl under and view the workings as you manually move the clutch pedal? It sorta sounds like the PP fingers have travelled past 'center' so they won't push back.

 

[belvedere666]

1 hour ago, wayfarer said:

Can you get someone to crawl under and view the workings as you manually move the clutch pedal? It sorta sounds like the PP fingers have travelled past 'center' so they won't push back.

 

PP fingers? Oh.. pressure plate fingers.. it’s a new pressure plate. But, I think I just discovered that they are sticking. When the clutch falls to the floor and I get back under the car, I have to snap the clutch fork back to loosen it up.

Edited January 7, 2022 by belvedere666

[Sniper]

Sounds like a lack of an overcentering spring

[belvedere666]

17 minutes ago, Sniper said:

Sounds like a lack of an overcentering spring

Over center spring is in and I’ve adjusted it back and forth and it doesn’t make a difference for the problem I’m having.

[47 dodge 1.5 ton]

If the pressure plate fingers are sticking, that is a problem unless they are over extending. Im guessing they stick even before the pressure is off the clutch not allowing to free wheel? Can you determine if they are hanging up on the throw out bearing by chance?

[belvedere666]

26 minutes ago, 47 dodge 1.5 ton said:

If the pressure plate fingers are sticking, that is a problem unless they are over extending. Im guessing they stick even before the pressure is off the clutch not allowing to free wheel? Can you determine if they are hanging up on the throw out bearing by chance?

I can’t really tell where or what’s hanging up. It’s too right in there to really see anything. I can see the clutch fork move the throwout bearing back and forth when the car is off.

when I start the car, I can push the clutch in a few times before it sticks.

then I’ll the car off and and get under there. Can’t really get a good visual, but if i put pressure on the clutch fork it’ll pop back and the pedal pops back up.

if I put my fingers up into the clutch area I can feel the pressure plate fingers and where they meet the throwout bearing.

Feels like there’s plenty of clearance where the throwout bearing touches.

if I back off the adjustment, and push the fork back, the throwout bearing spins.

[kencombs]

Not knowing what mix of parts you used for the adaptation makes this just a wild guess,  But, it is possible that the  throw out bearing is moving too far out on the front bearing retainer?   I have an A833OD bolted onto a 56 plymouth 230 block, crank and flywheel using the Plymouth's pressure plate and the same clutch disk you have. Not installed yet, but I think it will work.

 

I don't really remember the source of the TO bearing, but the trans and front bearing retainer are from a 79 van.  The clutch housing from a 60 Dodge pickup with a hydraulic clutch so I can't really measure anything for you.

[belvedere666]

1 hour ago, kencombs said:

Not knowing what mix of parts you used for the adaptation makes this just a wild guess,  But, it is possible that the  throw out bearing is moving too far out on the front bearing retainer?   I have an A833OD bolted onto a 56 plymouth 230 block, crank and flywheel using the Plymouth's pressure plate and the same clutch disk you have. Not installed yet, but I think it will work.

 

I don't really remember the source of the TO bearing, but the trans and front bearing retainer are from a 79 van.  The clutch housing from a 60 Dodge pickup with a hydraulic clutch so I can't really measure anything for you.

A833OD from an early 80s dodge van, I think.

it’s the pretty much same as the other one I have that was from a 79 dodge van. Slightly different side cover stamping, and the secondary mounting boss for the shift linkage that is at the end of the tail shaft isn’t drilled. Size and shape and everything is the same.

anyway…

9.25” 23 spline clutch disk and a stock style pressure plate and throwout bearing that came as a “clutch kit” with the disc.

 

[47 dodge 1.5 ton]

So if the clutch does disengage to neutral that is good. Just need to confirm that the throw out bearing has some movement while the clutch is “sticking” to rule out a “dragging” issue with the throw out bearing. Can you get in there with a bore scope by chance?

 One concern would be motor/bell alignment and bell/ transmission alignment. Just wanted to confirm there isn’t any bind on trans shaft or clutch disc. 
  Just trying to rule out the majors at this point. 

[kencombs]

How is the trans bolt pattern adapted to your bell?  Just redrilled, spacer or???? Still wondering if the front bearing retainer may be the issue.   When it releases and returns, does it just unlock and return or does it need to be pulled up?  

 

Not that it can't, won't or may have happened, but I've never seen pressure plate fingers lock down due to overcenter,  just when reved high enough for the centrifugal weights to cause it. Which brings up another question,  does it stay down only when running? or will it do it without the engine running?

Does your PP have the centrifugal weights? 

 

 

[belvedere666]

5 hours ago, kencombs said:

How is the trans bolt pattern adapted to your bell?  Just redrilled, spacer or???? Still wondering if the front bearing retainer may be the issue.   When it releases and returns, does it just unlock and return or does it need to be pulled up?  

 

Not that it can't, won't or may have happened, but I've never seen pressure plate fingers lock down due to overcenter,  just when reved high enough for the centrifugal weights to cause it. Which brings up another question,  does it stay down only when running? or will it do it without the engine running?

Does your PP have the centrifugal weights? 

 

 

The trans is adapted using a steel copy of the adapter Tim Kingsbury and AOK racing made. It has a hole in it that the bearing retainer sits in and the trans mounts to it. There are mounting ears that then get bolted into the bell housing.

the clutch doesn’t stick when the car is off and I press the pedal a bunch.When the car is on, and I press the pedal, it takes a few times but it falls to the floor.

then when I get under the car, I have to apple pressure to the fork and it snaps back.

Edited January 8, 2022 by belvedere666

[wayfarer]

The trans is adapted using a steel copy of the adapter Tim Kingsbury and AOK racing made. 

While I have not physically inspected one of 'those' adapters, most of the 'copies' that I have seen referenced in projects do not 

have any means to properly register the input shaft to the crank but simply rely on the attaching bolts to get-r-done....

Although the adapter is not likely to be part of your clutch issues you should check all of the parts to see exactly what you have.

Swaps are not a bad thing but when you stray from the oem engineered packages there are often unintended consequences 

that will dog you.

As for the adapter, if the trans input is more than 0.003" (0.007"TIR) off center from the crank it will damage the front bearing.

 

[Sniper]

1 hour ago, wayfarer said:

While I have not physically inspected one of 'those' adapters, most of the 'copies' that I have seen referenced in projects do not 

have any means to properly register the input shaft to the crank but simply rely on the attaching bolts to get-r-done....

 

they make offset dowels to adjust the bellhousing to block interface, that's where you'd make the adjustment once checked and determined to be off.

 

https://www.summitracing.com/search/part-type/bellhousing-dowel-pins

 

How to do that

 

https://www.holley.com/blog/post/how_to_align_your_bellhousing_for_maximum_transmission_and_clutch_life/

 

Edited January 13, 2022 by Sniper

[47 dodge 1.5 ton]

Also need to check perpendicularity to faces. The offset dowel only helps “center” the shaft.  When we were racing 4spd cars, there were several Lakewood blowproof aftermarket bell housings that we needed to have faces remachined. Off the top of my head, up to .003” was max. 
  When sweeping faces, you must figure indicator sag or you could make a good part a problem. (Adding— if checking in a horizontal position, vertical measurement most likely “not required”.)

 Without actually verifying what you have and assuming there is no bind and the new pressure plate is working correctly, I would still try a floor stop at just a smidge below “free engagement” needed. Not costly, and would help point in next path forward if failed results.

Edited January 13, 2022 by 47 dodge 1.5 ton

[wayfarer]

5 hours ago, Sniper said:

 

they make offset dowels to adjust the bellhousing to block interface, that's where you'd make the adjustment once checked and determined to be off.

 

 

Not exactly.....bolts are never to be used for alignment because every time it is disassembled you will be re-doing your hours of work with the offset dowels.  It appears that you have never tried to do this insitu.  The adapter needs to have some form of registration to the bell just like the front bearing retainer registers in the bell that the trans comes from.

[Sniper]

You don't register the adapter to the bellhousing.  You register it to the crankshaft. 

 

Why would you ever need to remove the adapter once registered? 

 

Bolt the adapter on, measure the adapter register, use offset dowels to align.  Red Loctite the adapter bolts if you are worried someone will try to remove them.

 

Once aligned you are done, forever.

Edited January 14, 2022 by Sniper
clarification

[wayfarer]

You completely miss the point of buying, or even making, an adapter. If the adapter is registered to the bell then you don't have to try and juggle the 40lb iron bell over your head while you adjust the offset dowels and then the dial indicator, over and over again. Is the average guy going to get it right the first time? while lying on his back? I seriously doubt it. Maybe you're better than average. Maybe you will pull the engine and do the work on a rolling engine stand.

If someone is marketing a trans adapter they really should be doing the whole job; anyone can drill holes in a drill press.

[sidevalvepete]

I think snipers link here is the complete overview of the alignment precision needed

https://www.holley.com/blog/post/how_to_align_your_bellhousing_for_maximum_transmission_and_clutch_life/

Have read it thoroughly and learnt heaps that many of you will already know. Some later adaptations to the old mopar technology and tolerances need to be way more precise. Not a sliding jack/laying under the car overhead job.

May be keen to try this one day but at the moment happy with the old original engineering that continues to prove it's durability.

Of course this may not be the problem to the original topic.....

[Sniper]

42 minutes ago, wayfarer said:

You completely miss the point of buying, or even making, an adapter. If the adapter is registered to the bell then you don't have to try and juggle the 40lb iron bell over your head while you adjust the offset dowels and then the dial indicator, over and over again. Is the average guy going to get it right the first time? while lying on his back? I seriously doubt it. Maybe you're better than average. Maybe you will pull the engine and do the work on a rolling engine stand.

If someone is marketing a trans adapter they really should be doing the whole job; anyone can drill holes in a drill press.

 

there are two ways to do things, the right way and the wrong way.  How you chose to do it is your call.  You pretty much cannot align the bellhousing to the block with the engine in the car so you need to pull it to do it right on our rides, after all the rear mounts prevent it.  Or you can just slap it together and hope for the best.