Weekend work

[Dodgeb4ya]

It would be nice to see stone/water deflector shields available on these disc brake kits.

[Sniper]

On 11/7/2021 at 3:43 PM, Bryan said:

How much did you have to grind off?

 

I finally found the info, from a GM technical service bulletin.  0.005" minimum, 0.012" maximum clearance between the caliper and the caliper mounting bracket.  That info would have been nice to have had in the Rusty Hope instructions, as would the caliper mounting bolts torque spec, 28 ft/lbs (GM TSB info) and the 5/8-18 bolt torque (Fastenal, zinc plated grade 5 bolt), 144 ft/lbs.

 

Still trying to find the brake hose banjo bolt torque spec for the GM metric calipers the kit uses.  It appears to be 32 ft/lbs but my source is kinda shaky there, internet hot rod forum.  I have no GM products nor any GM literature so I can't double check anything.

 

 

Edited November 22, 2021 by Sniper
more info

[Sniper]

One other issue I ran into during final install.  The specified hose has a pair of squarish tabs where it passed thru the frame mounted tab.  I assume that in the original application those tabs are an alignment feature, in my case it was in the way.  So I hand filed off the smaller of the two tabs, it fits fine now.  Though the instruction to mention the need to remove a mounting bracket on the hose, easy enough, it makes no mention of those tabs.  Again that would have been nice.

 

I have the pass side done, driver's side hadn't been started.  Spent that time yesterday degunking both sides and cleaning up the tie rod sleeves, pitman arm and other semi related areas.  Seriously thinking about dropping the pan to clean and reseal it since I have the tie rod assemblies out of the way and I have a large mess under there.  But to be honest this might turn out to be one of the snowball things and I don't want to get that ball rolling.  Because I fear the timing cover and rear main seals "ought to be replaced while I am there"  ?  ?

[Racer-X-]

16 minutes ago, Sniper said:

Still trying to find the brake hose banjo bolt torque spec for the GM metric calipers the kit uses.  It appears to be 32 ft/lbs but my source is kinda shaky there, internet hot rod forum.  I have no GM products nor any GM literature so I can't double check anything.

What specific GM caliper are you using?  Either the GM part number (ideal), an aftermarket part number,  or the vehicle make, model, year and any brake related RPOs that determine the caliper would work.

 

32 ft. lbs. is in the ball park.  Most of those M10 banjo bolts with the smaller (often 13mm) heads are between 30 and 40 ft. lbs.

 

[Sniper]

NUGEON 97P17248A and NUGEON 97P17248B are the part numbers I went with.  the calipers that are specified for the swap are generically called GM metric calipers and used from 78-92 on a variety of GM RWD pass cars.  I went with a 92 Camaro when I looked them up.  I have no idea what an RPO is, I don't speak GM, lol

[Racer-X-]

OK.  32 ft. lbs is correct for that one.  I don't even have to look it up once I checked the part number and applications.  That fits every GM S series truck/SUV ever. I just know that one off the top of my head.

 

Oh, and "RPO Code" is the 3 letter code on the "Service Parts ID" sticker on GM cars.  It's basically a "build sheet."  On some models, there are "heavy duty brake" options, with codes like "J55."  For certain models, especially trucks, the code is important because there are multiple different calipers used depending on the weight rating of the truck and it's axles. Other car models with different body styles (especially if there's a convertible and a station wagon in the lineup) can have several different calipers and those codes identify the brakes installed on the car.

Edited November 22, 2021 by Racer-X-

[Racer-X-]

Does your bracket include the caliper stop?  It's in these two pix, just above the upper slider pin.

 

This pic is that caliper mounted in a 3rd gen camaro:

 

And this one is in an S10 pickup truck:

 

I'm talking about that cast piece that's part of the spindle and almost touches the caliper along the center line of the rotor.  It's somewhat rusty and old looking on the Camaro with the new, freshly painted caliper.

 

That piece is what keeps the caliper from moving with the rotor when it squeezes the rotor. That basically absorbs and transfers all the braking force from the caliper to the spindle.  There's also a slot arrangement on the bottom half of the caliper that keeps it from rotating outward and is also involved in applying the braking force between the spindle and the rotor. 

 

The slider pins on that caliper aren't designed to take the full load of braking in sheer.  The main braking forces are handled by that caliper stop piece of the spindle above the caliper.

[Sniper]

There is a stop, that's the .005-.012" clearance thing i mentioned above. 

[Sniper]

Well, I got around to getting around to it, lol.

 

Been holding off on finishing up the front suspension as I wanted to spend that time with my son, but stuff happens.  So I got busy today.  Made a list of all the torque specifications I was going to need.  Between the FSM spotting those numbers in various locations and the disc brake swap I had a bit of a list going.  Then I realized my good, calibrated torque wrench was too small for about 15 of the 18 things I needed to torque, lol.  But it could do the tie rod assemblies.  Torqued the tie rod studs and decided to pump grease into them.  For some reason the inners used a larger grease fitting that my grease gun would not go over and the outers, well the grease gun could be forced onto the fitting but no grease would flow through the fittings.  So I figure, well I have an assortment kit of grease fittings, I'll just swap them out.  Except when I go to screw in a new fitting on an outer tierod it won't.  Turns out it's ....... metric not SAE.  6mm is very close to, but slightly smaller than 1/4-27.  So I bust out the digital calipers and measure things, then I pull out the metric dies and yep, it's metric.  In inner fitting (8mm in this case) didn't even have a check ball, you could see daylight thru it.   

 

Off to NAPA with I go with both sizes of the metric fittings and one of my originals to see if I could get good metric grease fittings that would work with my grease gun.  I ended up buying a 6 pack of 6mm and a 6 pack of 8mm metric grease fittings as well as a new tip for my grease gun that fit the new fitting (I checked at the store), $22 later and I am good.  The NAPA fittings fit the tierods and my grease gun was able to pump grease into the tie rod ends.  I'll buy a good torque wrench later today adn hit the rest of the items tomorrow.  

 

I did drag out my P2555/60R15 tire on a stock 15 mopar cop car rim for a test fit.  It clears everything after the disc swap, before the swap the side wall would crash into the UCA outer pivot at lock.  I found that comforting. 

 

So I decided to knock off work at this point, 2:00pm, it was 105 out, lol.  No country for old men indeed.

[Bryan]

1 hour ago, Sniper said:

Well, I got around to getting around to it, lol.

 

So I decided to knock off work at this point, 2:00pm, it was 105 out, lol.  No country for old men indeed.

Sounds like some of the days I've had..

[Sniper]

Got on the Plymouth again.  It's my weight loss program, lol.  Down 5 pounds since yesterday.  

 

I ran by Harbor Freight yesterday and picked up one of their Icon split beam torque wrench.  I prefer a clicker over a digital wrench.  Anyway, I also picked up a few other odds and ends needed a 3/8" hex bit to torque the caliper mounting bolts, so I bought a set.  Probably find my old Craftsman ones now.  Tossed my old torque wrenches, one of which was just a breaker bar anymore and the other two were deflecting beam ones, which I dislike even more than the digital.

 

This morning I got on the Plymouth early, it was only 95 when I started.  Finished up torquing all the front suspension and steering stuff, even ran the wrench on the steering gearbox bolts, two were mildly loose.  Found out during the process I need another torque wrench, on that goes from 20ft/lbs and up.  Had to bust out my work torque wrench to cover the gap.

 

Then I greased up all the grease fittings, I swear every time I do that I find more.  The latest find was a fitting on the outside of the frame rail for the clutch pedal pivot, right by the over center spring.  It was so covered in goo and who knows what that I never noticed it before.  It's clean now and greased.  I was happy to finally be done with the front end stuff, other than an alignment.  So I moved on.

 

Once I finished the disc brake swap and bled the brakes I noticed that the front tires do not spin easily.  I cracked open the bleeder on one of the calipers and released the pressure.  It spun freely now.  Time to get around to putting in an external residual pressure valve for the rears and pull the one out of the master cylinder.  Being that this car is 70+ years old and is probably still running all the original brake stuff, except the line from the splitter in the front to the driver's side wheel and maybe the master cylinder, I was nervous about taking it apart without any issues.  My rear brake line goes from the backside of the master to a T fitting right about where the driver's side front leaf spring mount is.  I got the connection at the T fitting loose easily enough.  The master cylinder connection was a bit tougher because the line to the front brakes is right there, in the way.  I did the tighten then try to loosen trick, it worked.  So I tried to loosen the front brake line as it needs to come off to pull the cap off the master cylinder and pull the internal rpv.  Tried to tighten, no dice, tried to loosen, no dice.  My flare nut wrench was spreading and threatening to round off the fitting. So I stepped back and punted.

 

Actually, I was remembering past attempts on other vehicles and what a PITA those ended up being.  Now I have a nice set of genuine, made in USA, Craftsman flare nut wrenches so I was not happy.  I recalled in the past having to just clamp on the fitting with vice grips and getting the fitting loose.  I really didn't want to do that because i really didn't want to have to deal with replacing the fitting or line.  Then it was like a stroke of genius hit.  If I clamped down on the flare nut wrench with the vice grips that should keep things from going sideways and messing up the fitting.  It worked, lol.  I ended up not having the right sized wrench or socket to pull the cap of the end of the master, so the universal hammer was used, aka adjustable wrench.   

 

Then it came time to make up a new line from the master to the rear T fitting.  I have a spool of copper nickle 3/16" brake line and new tube nut fittings.  So using the original brake line as a guide I made up a new line with the remote residual pressure valve in it between where the ling would snap into the factory mounts on the inside frame rail.  Which meant I had 4 double flares to make.  To be honest here, my ability to make good double flares on steel line is, mmm, hit or miss.  Of course if I had a fancy expensive pro type flaring kit it might work better than the low buck kit I used.  But with the CuNi line it works much better.  4 flares later, and I did remember to slide the fittings on first, lol, I was done.  One trick I learned from a pro I know is to seat the new flare a couple of times and inspect for a nice circular witness mark on the flare.  Otherwise you'll leak.  Installed the line and did a bit of hand fitting.  Everything looked good.  Decided I was to slobbered up to mess with bleeding the brakes, didn't want to fool with the carpet. 

 

Decided to pull the rear tires in prep for the brake bleed tomorrow.  While I am there let's do a minor brake adjustment.  That went ok, then I was remembering when I first bought the car and the nuts on the lower brake pivot bolts were so loose you could see a gap.  So I looked up the torque spec and busted out my new fancy dancy torque wrench.  Well, now I get to do a major brake adjustment now, the nuts would not tighten up, just spun the bolts.  So I pulled the drum off the driver side and got to thinking about what a PITA the factory method is.  Then I recalled someone, can't remember who, just cut a slot in the end of the bolt so he could use a screwdriver to set the adjustment.  Too bad those factory engineers didn't think of that.  At this point I called it a day, my voice goes away when I get wore out, followed closely by my left leg and I was sounding like James Gammon.  Probably didn't help that it was 105 when I buttoned up, i did get an extra hour in today compared to yesterday.  I do have a nice Hessaire swamp cooler that helps.  Might help more if it was a garage and not a car port.

 

Cleaned up the shop and left the Plymouth in a good place to carry on tomorrow with the brake bleeding, brake adjustment and I need to fix a coolant leak.  If I get those things done all I have left is an alignment.  Wish me luck.

Edited July 8, 2022 by Sniper

[Bryan]

Just make sure to drink enough water. About a 16oz every 1/2 hour.   That's what I bought, the copper nickel line. And the cheap double/bubble flare tool.

[Sniper]

I used to climb wind turbines out here, in addition to no ac or swamp cooler there was no shade to speak of.  So yeah, I learned to handle the climate and to drink ambient temperature water too.  Back to the grindstone now.  Had to swing by the parts store for some disc brake grease and brake spring pliers.

[keithb7]

This can't be the same Sniper in the Avatar photo..Lol. I need to reprogram who I envision in my brain when I read your posts.

Edited July 9, 2022 by keithb7

[Bryan]

I'll hijack it...here's me about a week ago with my BCC removed. Normally I'm prettier.

[Sniper]

5 hours ago, keithb7 said:

This can't be the same Sniper in the Avatar photo..Lol. I need to reprogram who I envision in my brain when I read your posts.

 

Well, I have a pic of my as a sophomore in HS in the background of my profile, my son looks almost identical to me.  The pic of me in the posts, that avatar, is from my second deployment to the Persian Gulf, at sea somewhere, about 24-25 depending on exactly when that picture was taken.  The one of me on the wind turbine, I was at least 42 then.  I am 57 now. 

 

 

[keithb7]

The man revealed!  The face says “don’t play games with me”.

 

Ya’ll see my mug a lot, I am glad to see yours.

[Sniper]

Thanks lol, that's my don't worry be happy face. 

[Los_Control]

On 11/7/2021 at 5:16 PM, Sniper said:

I think if the bearing spacer wasn't as thick the cotter pin issue wouldn't be there. 

Sorry I looked a couple times and re-read, I guess I just missed your solution to the castle nut cotter key issue.

 

I know of a few solutions, was just wondering what your solution was?

[Sniper]

I deleted the washer for now.

[Los_Control]

Ok that works .... I have the Rustyhope kit sitting on a shelf ..... I bought it for a different project .... current project does not need it ... yet!

But I have done some reading on instructions & what to expect.

 

I believe it is rustyhope website that suggest to just install the castle nut backwards, that fixes the issue .....

 

I honestly have given this some thought .... seems so wrong .... Would the nut really be less effective if installed backwards?

 

My personal opinion is, THAT IS SO WRONG!

Same time I have never found a honest reason why the nut would be less effective if installed backwards?

 

Just kinda curious what others think about this method..

Another method is get online and order thinner castle nuts.

 

I simply have never heard of removing a spacer .... This may work out really well by replacing it with a proper thickness spacer.

Simply curious on how it works out.

 

[Sniper]

20 minutes ago, Los_Control said:

Another method is get online and order thinner castle nuts.

 

If you find one let me know, I've been looking with no success.

 

21 minutes ago, Los_Control said:

I simply have never heard of removing a spacer

 

I removed the washer between the outer wheel bearing and the castle nut.  I thought about modifying the seal spacer he provides, but I think that in order to get enough room to put in the cotter pin the rotor would kiss the backing plate/bolts.  I am looking into thinner washers though.

[Los_Control]

Yeah I would have to say the ideas I have are really not smart .... like me.

 

What if you put your castle nut in a vice & ground off what you needed?

 

What if you took your castle nut and & used your mini die grinder and just made the slots deeper. so the cotter key would fit.

 

IMHO, A castle nut does a very important job.

 

Since I'm not a engineer I can not tell you the force a front wheel will give on the wheel bearing & nut to keep it in place.

 

Exactly how thick a castle nut needs to be to accept the force of the front wheel bearings  .....

All options seem to be just get a thinner castle nut .... or simply flip the existing nut around so it fits.

 

Yeah I got no great idea either.

 

[Sniper]

I am not running the original style castle nut, I updated to the later style setup, the nut is .37" thick.  Not sure how thick the washer is though.  I'll see tomorrow

 

Later style spindle nut setup

 

[squirebill]

Maybe could use your belt sander or a  hand file to thin down your spindle nut and/or washer so cotter pin would fit.  Parts coated in wheel bearing grease would eliminate corrosion concerns of unplated metal parts.

 

I used your idea to convert to the HELP 04991 kit on my '49 B1B.  Bought the kit for my '49 Suburban but haven't installed it yet.  Thanks for your research and posting it. Regards