Brake fluid leak at brass connection - rear cylinder 1935 Plymouth PJ

[rrunnertexas]

Sorry for the upside down photo.

 

Please help with this brake fluid leak at the junction of the brass fitting and the wheel cylinder or the copper washer to the brass connection on my 1935 Plymouth PJ.

 

I have tried several different copper washers, cleaned and cleaned again.  The surface at the wheel cylinder looks nice and clean.  

 

I'm stumped.  Why is this leaking and what is the solution to fix it?

 

Are there new brass banjo connections available somewhere as well as the copper washers?

[desoto1939]

I had a friend that has the same issue the brass part that goes into the wheel cylinder is called a banjo.  Go to Vintage powerwagon.com select the brake section

 

See the insert that i copied for you.  He has the bango part and the washers. He is th eonly on that has these for the arly cars.

 

Rich Hartung

Desoto1939@aol.com

 

[knuckleharley]

24 minutes ago, rrunnertexas said:

Sorry for the upside down photo.

 

Please help with this brake fluid leak at the junction of the brass fitting and the wheel cylinder or the copper washer to the brass connection on my 1935 Plymouth PJ.

 

I have tried several different copper washer setheaned and cleaned again.  The surface at the wheel cylinder looks nice and clean.  

 

I'm stumped.  Why is this leaking and what is the solution to fix it?

 

Are there new brass banjo connections available somewhere as well as the copper washers?

Dunno,but if it were me,the first thing I would try would be a new brass connector.

Also,it looks like you have two copper compression washers under the bolt. Never a good idea. Why did you do this? Is the male part of the bolt too long and bottoms out?

[rrunnertexas]

Knuckle - nope, just one washer "outside" and one the "inside" connection.  That little white part in the picture was my other attempt as stopping the leak using plumbers tape.  It did not work either.

 

 

[rrunnertexas]

This photo shows how it was set up when I bought the car.  The inside washer was copper and the outside was a standard type steel washer.  In my mind I'm thinking, oh, this is an easy fix, just add 2 fresh copper washers.  Nope.... not so easy.

[rrunnertexas]

Desoto1939 - Thanks for that great resource!  I found the PDF of the catalog and it looks like they carry the brass connection, banjo bolts and both of the copper washers.  A phone call on Monday may get those parts heading this way.

 

I'm still scratching the ever growing bald spot on my head as to why this is leaking....

[Young Ed]

If I'm remembering correctly someone had this problem and they heated the copper washers with a propane torch to soften them up and get a better crush

[Andydodge]

To soften or anneal copper you heat it then let cool.......what condition is the outer face of the wheel cylinder............as the leak appears to be coming from the brass fitting/wheel cylinder joint there must be some sort of incorrect or "worn" area where they meet................or is it actually leaking from under the bolt head/outside edge of the brass fitting?..........andyd.   

[desoto1939]

13 hours ago, rrunnertexas said:

Desoto1939 - Thanks for that great resource!  I found the PDF of the catalog and it looks like they carry the brass connection, banjo bolts and both of the copper washers.  A phone call on Monday may get those parts heading this way.

 

I'm still scratching the ever growing bald spot on my head as to why this is leaking....

Here is a good one also. I had replace the bleeder screw on my right rear wheel cylinder many years ago. And had not pbms. The other day i looked under the car and saw a wet spot by the bleeder screw.  I replaced the bleeder screw with another one that I had and it leaked even more.  I found a NOS old style bleeder screw put that in the cylinder and the leakinf stopped.  I found a brake specialist that had the modern version of the bleeder screw that had the correct configuation for my wheel cylinders.  The gentleman that I talked to knew what the old style looked like but they can not get them reproduced. He sent me the new style put them in the wheel cylinder and these new ones did not leak.

 

Since he knew the older brake parts asked him if he had the bango brass piece and he knew exactly what I was talking about but he does not carry them so that is why i sent you to vintage becasue I knew he carried them.  replace the bango and the washers and also the bolt that has the bleeder get new parts for the connection. Brakes can not leak.

 

Rich Hartung

Desoto1939@aol.com

[Sniper]

One thing to look at, if the copper washers are too thin the bolt will bottom out before the washers seal.  Ran into that when I replaced a brake hose and the supplied new copper washers were about half the thickness of the originals.

 

I would run the bolt in hand tight,, with nothing else on it, and measure the distance between the bottom of the bolt head and the wheel cylinder surface.  Then measure the brass fitting and the washers, a little subtraction would give you your crush spec.

[rrunnertexas]

Thanks to everyone so far for the help, your time and advice is very much appreciated.   Going to order the parts tomorrow morning and fingers crossed they have all in stock.

 

I'll double check the "crush distance" to be sure when the new parts arrive.  My hands are done with brake fluid this weekend.

 

 

 

 

[Jerry Roberts]

I usually wear the thin disposable groves . 

[rrunnertexas]

Update - the new parts arrived from the vintage power wagon site including bolts, brass connectors and inner/outer copper crush washers.  Installed them this evening and did the first round of line bleeding before dinner.  So far, DRY!  No leaks!  Oh, my....  insert smile here.

 

My guess is that perhaps the ridges on the old brass connectors were not as sharp and defined which allowed brake fluid to pass and leak?

 

Thanks so much for the advice and suggestions to get this problem solved!

[allbizz49]

Good deal you got the leak stopped. I've only had banjo fittings on my motorcycles. I think I would make a new hard line that threaded directly into the wheel cylinder. Wonder why they used a banjo.

[rrunnertexas]

allbiz49, I was wondering the same thing.  Why use banjo bolts for this when it does not really appear to be necessary?

 

If these leaked, a direct line was the next option.

 

Hoping after a final bleed tomorrow, all is dry and life moves on.

[Tooljunkie]

I dont know if the wheel cylinder is machined for the inverted flare seat. 
first photo of original banjo looked like bore was way oversize for the bolt. So it wouldnt center when snugged up. Nice you managed to get it sealed!