Project Elise - 50 B2B

[Tooljunkie]

8 hours ago, wagoneer said:

 

@JBNeal I glossed over a few bits of course....

 

I'm told it ran before, so I am sourcing radiator and carb for it to turn it over as priority. Stopping the rust in the meantime. 

 

@Tooljunkie Was it simple to convert to the floor shift? I too don't particularly like three-on-the-tree. I figure there must be a transmission over that must be changed over... is that it? Underneath it's the same mechanisms similar to how the parking brake was converted from bar to dash.

 

So i bought a parts truck. Had 3 speed floor shift and floor park brake. Thought they looked very similar, sure  enough the shifter housings interchanged, and with it was the casting for the park brake. Was an easy swap. I got very lucky. That rarely happens for me. 

[Merle Coggins]

As Tooljunkie said, find an older floor shift 3 speed, or go to a 4 speed, if your bell housing is drilled for it. (They have a different bolt pattern)

[wagoneer]

Got a good YF carb for the truck....looked inside the intake...

 

tell me Doc! How bad is it? What should I do? 
 

Regarding the shifter, I am getting a whole 1949 body, cab, trim, etc. 

 

I’d rather not swap out the trans per se, but maybe a trans cover?  Have to think about the rust in the intake first before the wish list.

 

looks to be surface rust but does it mean I need to pull the head and thoroughly clean the insides? Not looking to pull the engine, if possible. 
 

 

Edited March 15, 2021 by wagoneer

[Tooljunkie]

43 minutes ago, wagoneer said:

Got a good YF carb for the truck....looked inside the intake...

 

tell me Doc! How bad is it? What should I do? 
 

Regarding the shifter, I am getting a whole 1949 body, cab, trim, etc. 

 

I’d rather not swap out the trans per se, but maybe a trans cover?  Have to think about the rust in the intake first before the wish list.

 

looks to be surface rust but does it mean I need to pull the head and thoroughly clean the insides? Not looking to pull the engine, if possible. 
 

 

Think you are looking at the flapper for the heat riser. In first pic, grab that chunk of cast and see if it turns. May take a bit of work to get it moving. Mine was stuck, and was causing some heat issues. It opens under acceleration and when it gets hot enough it stays open. Cold it should spin closed. 
some people remove them,some wire them open. 
 

I had some rust too,as long as its not flakes of rust, dont worry about it. 

[Merle Coggins]

The heat riser flap is below the intake runner. If you could see it from that vantage point your intake would be junk. I don’t believe that to be the case. Just a bit of moisture that sat in there a bit. Once you get it running it’ll work itself clean with the flow of air/gas mix. 

[wagoneer]

The heat riser is free and moved open but I probably need a new spring.

 

phew, I’ll wire it up and give it a crank. 
 

[Brent B3B]

Gosh I can see why TJ said that. The  second photo doesn’t look right to me either.... almost looks like a throttle plate off a carb or something down in the intake hole . 

Edited March 15, 2021 by Brent B3B

[Tooljunkie]

Oops.. yes i am totally wrong. That looks like a loose flap in there. Regardless, even though im stoopid, my advice is still sound. And thanks for pointing it out. 

[wagoneer]

Only an optical illusion. It’s a shadow and a spec as the picture was taken at dusk. What you see is a fine layer of presumably rust that brushes away fairly quickly but doesn’t totally go away.

 

the heat riser flap opens and closed freely so presumably the internal flap is good too.

 

 

thoughts on whether I should try to fire it up prior to cleaning it out?

 

I’ll have the missing radiator soon, and then I could crank it.

 

I’m feeling antsy to see if it will crank over but I’m afraid of contaminating it to a full rebuild. Maybe a little TLC prevents a lot worse later?

 

anybody experienced at this stage of restoration?

 

cooling system needs a flush too.
 

I think I’ll take the manifold off and dremal it clean so not contaminate the engine any more. That will give me access to the valves and determine whether I have to do open heart surgery.

 

if all is good then I’ll have good vantage to beautify it too.

 

 

Apparently it’s been sitting for about two years after the lovingly in-progress restoration stopped. At which time  the truck was traded for payment for some service  or the other.

 

these old vehicles probably have some interesting life histories behind them as anything around 70+ years would.

 

 

 

 

 

[Brent B3B]

I am probably the wrong person to answer.  

I vote, take the tappet covers off, make sure the valves open and close, make sure the timing is right, get the radiator in and fire it up ?

[Merle Coggins]

The only way to truly address this would be to pull the manifolds off and thoroughly clean them. If it were mine I'd ignore it and fire it up, unless it's heavy rust flakes. You could always spray it with a little penetrating oil and wipe out what you can reach, but I don't believe it'll do any noticeable damage. 

[JBNeal]

Ya might want to take it a step further by pulling the head and oil pan to get a look at the combustion chambers, valve seats, crankshaft...look for broken ring scoring,  sludge, carbon buildup, and rear main seal leaks.  I have rebuilt flatheads with the engine in the truck, even replaced valve guides engine mounts...it's easier to overhaul a flathead on the stand, but if it only needs new gaskets and seals with no machine work, then it can be done without removing the engine.  Another thing to look for is timing chain wear, this too can also be done with the engine in place, more than likely that crankshaft seal will also need updating.  These flatheads were designed to be serviced, with many repairs geared towards being done in a service station back in the day.  With the unknown condition of the internals, better to be safe than sorry by giving it a thorough inspection before possibly exacerbating any potential problems.  If the internals are pristine and everything appears in order, then you're good to go  ?

[Brent B3B]

LOL, Killjoy! 

[Tooljunkie]

Mine had rust in cylinder walls, i pulled head and played whack-a-mole with the valves and spraying penetrating oil around the stems. Dropped oil pan and cleaned it.

pulled water pump and a leaking core plug and blasted everything i could out with water and compressed air. There was a lot of sediment in the block. It was last insured in 1965 so who knows the last time it ran. 
today, 40 psi oil pressure, 19” vacuum and started at 0f or -18 celcius.

it could use a timing chain,couldnt get one when i did timing cover so it went back together without. 
 

oil pan has to come off to do timing chain,so if doing one, should do the other. 

[wagoneer]

6 hours ago, Tooljunkie said:

Mine had rust in cylinder walls, i pulled head and played whack-a-mole with the valves and spraying penetrating oil around the stems. Dropped oil pan and cleaned it.

pulled water pump and a leaking core plug and blasted everything i could out with water and compressed air. There was a lot of sediment in the block. It was last insured in 1965 so who knows the last time it ran. 
today, 40 psi oil pressure, 19” vacuum and started at 0f or -18 celcius.

it could use a timing chain,couldnt get one when i did timing cover so it went back together without. 
 

oil pan has to come off to do timing chain,so if doing one, should do the other. 

Sigh, I think I will play it safe and give it a thorough cleaning all around. I've ordered all the gaskets, etc. 

 

 A lot of info out there on how to remove the rust safely without marring the finish. Everything from aluminum foil to 900 grit sandpaper.

 

 

[Tooljunkie]

As you can see it was a little crusty. I was on the”im not dumping a bunch of time and money into this” train. 
and i dont regret it at all,it runs like a top. I did clean it up,and i reused the copper head gasket as well. 
It ran, pretty decent,and got 3 oil changes. Im sure it has run all of 10 hours and no degrading of anything, still has great oil pressure. So,it got a few new odds and ends. 

[wagoneer]

Well, it’s been awhile and I’ve finally gotten started on this new truck of mine - I’m calling her Elise.

 

I’m going to change this thread to be my build thread so I don’t need to create superfluous topics .

 

 

After a very success international work your truck day, I am following up with fixing my starter and the sorting my master cylinder.

 

getting the starter out may be the most painful task possible -

 

I’ll detail steps later but it’s a pain and you need bent wrenches or you may hurt yourself or at least hurt the truck and move the oil filter out of the way... and the master cylinder.

 

 

anyway this topic is about rust 

 

rust in the master cylinder resovoir. What to do about it.

 

this truck amazes me. I’m pretty sure somebody spent a ton of money and time putting all new stuff in and then had to abandon or sell it. Master cylinder was never used - bone dry. No residue in lines either. Same with starter.

 

two years of  sitting froze the starter switch , the mc cap, and the brakes but it’ just needs a little tlc and paint that I’m giving it .

 

 

Can really paint it because brake fluid will eat it. Rustoleum?

 

suggestions?

 

[Los_Control]

Since it has not been used, I would guess the pedal/plunger not been moved?

That needs to be cleaned ... I would think some brake clean spray & a rag or brush?

 

These are really very simple to work on, very simple to disassemble & clean then put back together.

 

I took my non working master cylinder apart, sat for 20 years. I soaked it in a can of carburetor  cleaner, I then ran a small hone through the cylinder to clean it up. Then replaced the rubber cup in mine with a generic one the auto parts store had sitting on the shelf.

Put it back together and was able to bench bleed it and remove the air ... seems to work fine ... just never finished installing the new lines.

 

Next time I ordered something from DCM, I added a master cylinder rebuild kit ... I have it sitting on the shelf here  ... in case my makeshift cleaning of the master cylinder fails I have all new parts to put in it ...

 

You know that rust needs to be cleaned ... you want clean bare metal inside. The rust will break free, then flakes get caught in the passages of the master or the wheel cylinders. Same would happen with paint on the inside, just plug it up. While I did paint the outside, no paint inside.

 

[JBNeal]

if ya really want to remove rust from the casting, remove all guts and externals so that the bare casting can go through an electrolysis treatment or evaporust soaking 

[wagoneer]

11 hours ago, JBNeal said:

if ya really want to remove rust from the casting, remove all guts and externals so that the bare casting can go through an electrolysis treatment or evaporust soaking 

That’s a great link @JBNeal  that’s a good suggestion for the other rust remover thread potentially especially for my bag of rusted nuts and bolts.

 

the electrolysis is super easy and freeish. I have everything at home.

 

im thinking of using a dremel tool to clean it out . 
 

id rather not take it all apart .

[wagoneer]

Today was another great day for Elise. First Crank!  Building on IWOYTD, I took out my starter, (and my master cylinder), tried a replacement starter switch to realize it was the wrong year (1948-49 MAW-4004). My engine has the MCH-6106.  I had to unfreeze the original switch and reuse it. Two days of soaking in PB Spray as well as liberal exercise of the switch made it smooth. The longer spring returns the yoke and disengages the starter gear from the flywheel (<50 yoke has a spring on it for same purpose).

 

I realized why when writing - the biggest surprise is that my engine is NOT a truck engine - it's a D24 from 1951 in my 1950 chassis and cab! That's probably why the previous owner thought it was a 51.

 

I finished wiring in the gauges, installing the radiator, filling up the fluids, and stomp the starter ... nothing... silly ground. Apparently the frame is NOT ground for this truck, so I wired it temporarily to a bolt on the engine. Stomp...engine spins without disastrous crunching, clunking, clacking, clicking noise! 

 

Just enough to test for compression ...tomorrow, and order a new ignition coil. Spin but no spark. 

 

The more I look at the truck, the more I like about it. I also decided I'm going to go through every accessory, and repaint the engine, transmission, and exhaust with the high temperature silver from Bernbaum (2000 degrees!), and all the black accessories with 1000 degree grill black. I'm undercoating the frame with rubber paint in a can. I'm thinking the cab and fascia I will use a primer + single stage paint with multiple clear coats.

 

My short list of to do items till first turn-over and first drive:

 

1. new coil

2. turn over and start

3. hook up gas tank, gas sending unit, gas gauge,  and start from gas tank

4. connect carburetor  throttle, choke

5. rebuild and hone/electrolyze brake master cylinder

6. rebuild brakes

7. toe boards

8.  accelerator pedal install (toe boards are a prerequisite)

9. Fix Brake pedal rub against body (somehow pedal is too high and rubs against top of opening in firewall)

10. replace pinion seal and pinion wheel bearings.

11. horn

12. drop the pan and inspect the bearings.

13. Repaint engine, transmission, exhaust 

 

 

 

Tips I wish I knew for those removing starter on B1B/B2B or possibly

newer:

0. Two bolts - engine side, master cylinder side - very very narrow space - not enough for a socket.
1. Unbolt the oil filter from the block, and take out the oil filter return

2. Get a 5/8 offset wrench to get at the engine side bolt. That will save you a lot of headaches fighting that bolt

3. Frozen bolts - Map torch to heat it up, Freeze off - cold spray in a can,  and PB Spray to penetrate.

4. Taking out the master cylinder makes it super easy to reach the car side bolt...but it's a pain to take off the master cylinder (My cap was frozen too).

 

 

 

 

 

[JBNeal]

the starter is easier to remove and install if'n your floorboards are removed

 

additional information - starter ground performance upgrade

[wagoneer]

I've been busy with Project Elise over the two months though today I ran into a disheartening setback --- very low compression, and a stuck exhaust valve. 

 

I have successfully:

 

1) Rebuilt the distributor (vacuum advance is hosed though)

2) New wires, new plugs

3) fixed the starter

4) Got Spark (after I figured out my Ammeter was grounding the circuit)

5) new fuel pump

6) rebuilt Carter YF carburetor

7) static timed the distributor (per this site's instruction's though mine seems to be set to 9pm not 7pm for cylinder 1 TDC)

 

I thought for sure it would fire right up. I was "still", naively, thinking that the truck was pretty much rebuilt just sitting. Everywhere I look it is so so "new". New belts, new gaskets, no brake lines, fuel lines, fuel tank, new mbc. 

 

Confirmed that I was getting spark, fuel, and air.... but no bang regardless of the setting. ?

 

I then proceeded to be inspired a bit by the great video of this guy reviving a dodge out of a field . I thought  for sure if he can get a couple of trucks from the field and bang on them for a while, and have them driving, then I can get mine to fire up which looks in much better shape. 

 

Then things started being real and a little school of hard knocks.

 

I took off the front valve covers to see what's  going there first -- beautiful - super clean, , clean, no sludge, no wear as far as I can tell. 

 

 I confirmed I was on TDC for my static timing. 

 

 

 

I then proceeded to take the back cover off.... beautifull.....wait... I don't think cylinder 5 intake and exhaust valve clearances are quite right?!

 

Doh! Stuck valves. The intake valve (left one) did seat itself overnight after soaking in PB oil, but the right  one (exhaust valve) is still stuck

 

 

 

I then proceeded to do a compression test...and now I'm sad. ?

Only cylinder 3 makes me fairly happy.

 

 

 

 

Now I don't know what I should do next.

 

It is my learning vehicle to practice for similar work to be done on the Windsor that I know needs some ring work (blow-by) though I was hoping to avoid going this deep just to start her up.

 

I'll likely take the head off and clean it up as in the video (maybe gentler on the valve). Seems to me to be a ring job is necessary here, and my preference is to do it in-vehicle, if possible, as I would want to for my Chrysler as I don't have a shop or really good way to keep an engine out of the elements. 

 

Could be just a bad head gasket, and a stuck valve? Some marvel mystery oil soak on the pistons? 

 

I need some experienced thoughts here?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[wallytoo]

i'd spray some lubricant of choice into the plug holes, aiming across towards the valves (the plug is centered over the piston, and the valves are offest over by the manifolds).  let it sit overnight or a few overnights.  then rotate the engine and watch the valves.  if they are still stuck, perhaps take off the head and then use a rubber mallet and gently tap on the ones with clearance, while the camshaft has the lifters down.  do this for all the valves to see if they seat.  probably worth a shot to see if compression then improves.

[Los_Control]

Nice job on checking the compression. You are in great shape and will be some work ... you got this!

First off, the old school rings when sitting. They tend to freeze or get gummed up ... their job is to open up and seal the oil/compression.

But with old oil and sitting, they just do not move.

Working properly they expand & contract with heat and rotate around the ring landings in the piston. This seals the compression in the cylinder.

But sitting for awhile, you may need to use some marvel mystery oil, some atf/acetone 50/50 in the cylinders to free up the rings and get them rotating again.

 

The cylinder with zero compression is normal. Same cure. The valve stem pass through the valve guide. The narrow passage of the guide it gets gummed up, valve stays open and spring does not pull it back down.

Just a common problem ... first engine I touched had stuck valves on 5 cylinders. Just a common issue.

 

If you can get the engine to start, do a few heat cycles the valves & rings will free up.

Soak it up in oil for a few days, then try again. Then run another compression check and see where you going ... then again later.

You may end up pulling it back down and working on it.

But the compression you posted kinda sounds normal for a engine sitting awhile. Will improve with heat cycles..