Way off topic 1993 caravan transmission

[Los_Control]

Well I am done working on it for now .... This new/used motor is junk.

This time I think is no fault of my non existent mechanic skills. I could be wrong though ???

 

The motor really ran well, over 3 days I put 25 miles on it around town just short shake down runs.

The only thing left to do was take it on the freeway for a good road ripper.

Started out and as usual, it wants to cruise 80 mph coolant temp & oil is fine. After about 15 miles it lost power and ended up on the side of the road ... made it off the freeway. Towed it home yesterday.

Seems to have one or more rods knocking and low on power. The oil idiot light is now come and go.

 

My best guess at what happened here.

The motor sat for 10 years in a shed at the wrecking yard.

Here in West Texas our dirt is more like sand. The wind blows and the sand gets everywhere ... unless you have grass to hold it in place. A wrecking yard does not usually have grass.

 

I noticed the coolant after I filled it was a little like mud. I planned to flush it out good with warmer weather.

I noticed the new oil was black, but expect that from a engine sitting several years.

I am guessing the oil is also full of sand. It wore the bearings down.

Why there was no sign of anything wrong while driving. Til it was too late.

 

Live & learn. I paid $200 + fluids, gaskets some minor other items ... & labor to install it. I gambled & lost on a $200 motor.

These motors were made for many years and available from $200-$600 There is a rebuilt one for $2k

They are simple enough that even I can change one.

 

I parked it on the side of the garage today and put the pilothouse in the work area, ordered the rest of the brake lines I need. Getting ready to pull the bed and paint it along with the frame and finish the brakes ... Get a new bottle of gas for the welder.  Just tired of working on the caravan and time to work on the truck.

 

 

[Tooljunkie]

Well, that kinda blows. Rings, rod bearings and main bearings can be done with engine in van. But if crank is toast, its not worth it. 
i just replaced a 6.2 in a super duty, that was 7 long days. Would much rather do a 3.0 or 3.3 in a caravan. 

[Los_Control]

I really would not want to work on it in the van ... In my mind it would need to go to a machine shop before I would ever trust it again.

Here is a cold start after sitting about 5-6 hours, is way to noisy and no power ... 48 seconds in you hear a rod and only gets worse from there.

In the video you can see how smooth it is running ... why am certain the computer and sensors are correct ... it is what it is.

A better mechanic might have flushed the engine out with diesel fuel before installing it ... I may do that with the next one.

 

 

[Los_Control]

Wow .... last post 2/22/22 ..... Maybe 2's are bad luck for me.

 

Anyways I'm over being frustrated with myself & the car, time to start working on it again.

Or at least order parts for it ...... Or is it?

 

I have never worked on a bottom end before. Knowing it has a bad rod bearing .... mains sound fine.

 

My plan is to order a new crank, have it delivered for ~$250-$300.  ....... Before I tear it apart for inspection 

What could go wrong? ?

 

The engine ran perfect, a $3k rebuilt engine would not run any better.

It has 1 bad rod bearing .... for unknown reasons.

So at the very least the crank would have to be turned &  new rod & bearings.

 

Goal is to avoid going to the machine shop. I still may end up taking it to a machine shop if needed.

I will completely disassemble the block clean & inspect the valves .... measure the bores, inspect the cam bearings.

Figure out why a bearing spun in the first place.

 

A trip to the machine shop is over 2 hours each way, so 8 hours driving to drop the crank off & pick it up + the cost to have it turned .... $250 to have a new one delivered sounds pretty good to me.

Then the next 4-5 weeks will be ordering oil pump, timing chain set, rings etc...

With my wife seeing the new parts for her car coming in, will buy me another 4-5 weeks to work on my truck.

While waiting for her parts.

 

I think it may be a good plan, I really think the block is fine .... I just have a feeling in my gut that I should wait till I tear it apart .... I dunno because I never worked on a rotating assembly before.

Any opinions from the gear heads out there?

[Dave72dt]

It's been a year.  A couple days more to check the bottom end thoroughly before ordering a crank won't make much difference in the grand scheme of things.  It will make a difference if you happen to find it's not as kosher as you think and you need to find a fresh block.  Check the thrust bearing area carefully for end play wear.

[Los_Control]

Thanks @Dave72dt .... I really had to think about this for a day or so before replying back.

 

On 3/4/2023 at 11:49 AM, Dave72dt said:

It's been a year.  A couple days more to check the bottom end thoroughly before ordering a crank won't make much difference in the grand scheme of things. 

Thats exactly why I have the gut feeling  too wait before ordering parts.

 

Same time, I'm totally invested into the car. Everything on it is totally ready to rock & roll. Rebuilt transmission, new suspension, good paint, cold AC, new tires, axles  new fuel pump .... decent interior ....

 

No matter what, I just need a good engine for this 30 year old car.

 

So I figure I have a good block to rebuild, if I need to I can purchase another core ....

I really can not see a reason for not ordering parts for this engine block .... If this one is bad I will get another.

 

Now I'm convinced .... there is a local swap meet coming up this weekend .... Now if I happen to overspend .... My wife ask questions ..... I can explain that we need to wait until I get the motor apart & inspected .... & @Dave72dt said soo.

 

[Dave72dt]

I mentioned the thrust bearing area for a reason.  I had a '98 Caravan with the 3.3 that broke a camshaft.  While replacing it I noticed the end play on the crank was excessive.  A high mileage engine, the crank had worn through the thrust face of the bearing and into the block itself.   A fresh set of main bearings got us about 5 k more out of the engine before it came apart.  180-190k on it, 3 transmissions, broken cam, I was never really happy with the van.

[kencombs]

Are you ordering a 'new' or turned crank?  Never have I bought an actual new, as in standard size, never installed crank.

 

I've always purchased a reground crank with the appropriate size bearings.  And, that requires a core, or a sizeable deposit.  So tearing the engine down first saves a trip to the parts store as you can take the crank in and pick up the replacement in one trip.

 

Most any parts store can get the parts for you.  Rockauto has a crank and bearing set for a little less than 250.  + shipping of course.

 

Here is another source I found online:  https://www.mabbco.com/catalog/engine-parts/national-crankshaft-kit-program/manufacturer/chrysler/dodge-chrylser-33-201-crankshaft-crank-kit-1990-2006/.   and it doesn't require a core or return shipping.

[Los_Control]

14 minutes ago, kencombs said:

Are you ordering a 'new' or turned crank?

Good question. I have looked in the past at a few different suppliers .... I thought it was a new crank. Same time I swear Rockauto had more then 1 choice with different prices. .... I thought I was getting a brand new one.

 

I see it is a reman from RA for $247 includes bearings & no core required.

I actually need to put it in the cart to see what shipping will be. May be cheaper to get it from a local store.

 

I'm still guessing A reman crank & bearings would work in a block with no machine work .... assuming the block is good.

Or does the block need to be machined to match the crank? ..... I'm guessing the crank & bearings are matched to work with the block. ..... Also to work with stock rods.

 

For the rod replacement .... I'm not sure how the wrist pins are installed ..... I think they are press fit .... I'm not qualified to remove a piston from this engine and press it onto a new rod .... I do not have the equipment.

I do have 5 good rods/pistons from the old engine .... measure & inspect, pick the best good one & use it with new rings/bearings.

 

My worst fear right now is opening the engine up, dissecting it like a detective at a crime scene and not find the cause of the bearing failure.

 

My first thoughts was sand blown into the engine while sitting .... I think that is wrong.

Now I'm leaning to crap in the oil & plugging the oil pump ...... Just hoping at some point I can find the failure and feel confident when putting it back together ..... A new oil pump is a must.

 

 

 

[kencombs]

12 hours ago, Los_Control said:

Good question. I have looked in the past at a few different suppliers .... I thought it was a new crank. Same time I swear Rockauto had more then 1 choice with different prices. .... I thought I was getting a brand new one.

 

I see it is a reman from RA for $247 includes bearings & no core required.

I actually need to put it in the cart to see what shipping will be. May be cheaper to get it from a local store.

 

I'm still guessing A reman crank & bearings would work in a block with no machine work .... assuming the block is good.

Or does the block need to be machined to match the crank? ..... I'm guessing the crank & bearings are matched to work with the block. ..... Also to work with stock rods.

 

For the rod replacement .... I'm not sure how the wrist pins are installed ..... I think they are press fit .... I'm not qualified to remove a piston from this engine and press it onto a new rod .... I do not have the equipment.

I do have 5 good rods/pistons from the old engine .... measure & inspect, pick the best good one & use it with new rings/bearings.

 

My worst fear right now is opening the engine up, dissecting it like a detective at a crime scene and not find the cause of the bearing failure.

 

My first thoughts was sand blown into the engine while sitting .... I think that is wrong.

Now I'm leaning to crap in the oil & plugging the oil pump ...... Just hoping at some point I can find the failure and feel confident when putting it back together ..... A new oil pump is a must.

 

 

 

A reman crank and matching bearings will drop into a good stock block with no machine work needed.   I'm not sure why you are concerned with rod replacement.  Until you tear it down you won't know if that is needed.  It is not usually an issue, unless the one rod bearing that is bad has spun and damaged the rod itself, not common.   Using a good used rod and piston from the other engine is a good choice, after careful inspection and measurements of course.c

 

It is also possible to have a bad rod repaired by a rebuilder if not too badly damaged.  They grind a little of the cap, bolt it back on and hone it back to the original size so that it accepts stock OD inserts.  Any shop that can grind cranks should be able to do that. 

 

Ebay has a lot of choices, actual new, used and reground.  Not necessarily the place to buy good for comparison

[Los_Control]

3 hours ago, kencombs said:

I'm not sure why you are concerned with rod replacement.  Until you tear it down you won't know if that is needed.  It is not usually an issue, unless the one rod bearing that is bad has spun and damaged the rod itself, not common. 

Possibly it did not damage the rod. .... I'm guessing the bearing did spin.

 

Speed limit on the freeway is 75mph ... so imagine driving 80 mph down the freeway and everything is perfect.

Just barely have the foot on the gas pedal .... plenty of power.  No engine noise, no warning lights.

 

Then the engine starts to lose power, you need to press on the gas pedal to maintain speed, then the oil light comes on & next a rod starts tapping.

 

Seems like the bearing failed or spun on the rod first. Acting like a clamp on the crank shaft causing the engine to work harder to maintain speed. ... then 1 mile down the road the oil light came on, another 1/2 mile the rod started tapping.

 

At 80 mph, 1.5 miles goes by pretty fast when you are wondering if you have a fuel delivery or spark issue.

 

I just can not see a cam or valve train issue causing it .... I have been wrong before.

 

I probably should wait till I have the engine torn part on the stand.

 

 

[kencombs]

Strange failure mode.  I'd guess oil pressure dropped first, causing high friction power loss,  then bearing(s) failed    dropping pressure to zero,  oil pump or pump drive maybe.  I think that one is concentric with and driven by the front of the crank.

Your last sentence is correct thinking IMO.

[Los_Control]

So another year went by ..... I guess when I get pissed off at a car I get pissed 

 

So I did get the work done on the 49 dodge, I can now put Lady Belle back in the work area.

And I actually want to work on it again .... simply could not find a 30 year old used engine locally with less then 180K miles on it.

I was looking at buying a short block for $950 .... But the build time was simply a minimum of 3 months out.

 

Then I looked again over the weekend and a engine with 135k showed up locally and I grabbed it.

I paid full price this time, it actually has a 90 day warranty .... so I better get it installed.

 

I bought the engine on Monday, this is Wednesday and it still is not unloaded  

 

 

No sense in getting in a rush about these things. ..... There is old Hound dog sitting on the side pushed out of the line up.

Sometimes staying married is important .... Happy wife happy life.

[Los_Control]

On 3/13/2024 at 2:53 PM, Los_Control said:

I paid full price this time, it actually has a 90 day warranty .... so I better get it installed.

 

So I got it out of the car yesterday .... Dang spring weather gets in the way and had to spend a month in the garden getting it ready & planted. .... Finally got serious working on it ..... got the engine on the ground yesterday, I need to swap the transmission and order a couple parts .... I'm out of locktite. ...... June 11 the warranty will expire   🙄

 

[Los_Control]

Man I have been dragging my feet on this job ..... The show must go on.

Seems like I have been here before, did this exact same job and got my nose bumped .... here I am doing the exact same thing and history is telling me I'm about to get my nose bumped again.

 

I have motor/trans sitting on mounts and just putting the big jigsaw puzzle back together. Sucks pulling a engine out the top when it is designed to come out the bottom. So many unnecessary things need to come apart.

 

Anywho, I could use a little advice on this one. I'm just getting ready to install the fuel rail and found my repair had a leak.

I'm thinking I just did not use enough Teflon tape on it and need to redo it. ..... Now I'm wondering if gas will eat Teflon tape. ..... Maybe there is something better available for threaded fittings on fuel injection lines?

 

 

 

[JBNeal]

Teflon should work when exposed to gasoline, though that rubber fuel line looks a little long in tooth.  When I apply the Teflon tape, I try to go 3 circuits, starting at the tip of the threads and overlapping 1/3 the tape width...this adds additional taper to the mechanical connection and shuts off any possible leak path.

[Los_Control]

5 minutes ago, JBNeal said:

Teflon should work when exposed to gasoline, though that rubber fuel line looks a little long in tooth. 

Thanks for the reply JB, I agree it looks bad in photo. I just wanted to snap a photo before I cleaned it up to show the leaky fitting.

The repair I did last time when I installed the used engine, I only got less then 50 miles on it before bearing spun.

I feel the hose is like new, vehicle was just parked for 2 years til I got over being mad at it.

So it had dirt and dust on it and wiped clean easily.

 

I appreciate your input on Teflon, I was thinking same also, just not sure though.

I have had problems with Teflon in the past .... I guess I use it sparingly on plumbing fixtures to keep a nice clean job for customers .... when I slather on pipe dope it is messy, but never have a leak.

I suppose I just repeated past problems trying to keep it looking neat.

 

Only thing I can think of that might be a better fix, use steel braided lines and AN fittings.

I honestly know nothing about them and do not know if actually better .... other then it looks better.

IIRC, the caravan carries 35-40 psi in fuel rail .... not incredibly high.

[JBNeal]

The light duty nature of the minivan engine suggests that a good nylon-reinforced fuel injection rubber hose rated upwards of 100 psi could handle this work load effortlessly.  That steel braided stuff is primarily used on heavy duty applications where high heat and vibrations require external reinforcement to extend hose life.

[Sniper]

On 6/10/2024 at 3:42 PM, Los_Control said:

IIRC, the caravan carries 35-40 psi in fuel rail .... not incredibly high

 

Make sure it is rated for fuel injection use and not carb use.  It should be labeled SAE J30R9. 

[Los_Control]

24 minutes ago, Sniper said:

 

Make sure it is rated for fuel injection use and not carb use.  It should be labeled SAE J30R9. 

Thanks sniper ..... it is hard to say at this point.

I just remember buying it at Napa and requesting high pressure fuel injection line ..... It cost $8 per foot.

I bought a few feet of it because I also used it for my transmission cooler lines .... FWD car they are only about 10"-12" long from the radiator. ..... Then I ordered online a set or assortment of high pressure clamps to have spares on the shelf.

 

The only thing I can read on the hose today is.

Made in the USA   07/08/21    04   36    ....... There is some additional writing up by my thumb but simply can not read it.

 

I only assume Napa sold me the right stuff, they certainly charged me for it .... It is reinforced under the exterior rubber coating and not simple to cut ..... I'm just comfortable thinking I have the right stuff .... I have often been wrong in the past.

 

 

 

[Sniper]

Sounds about right, I ran into an issue years ago when I was working on a car and needed EFI hose, my daughter ran to the parts store with my hand written list that specifically said EFI hose.  She came back with carb hose and I asked her about it, she told me she just handed the list to the clerk and he got it all.  So I cleaned up, went to the store with her and talked to that clerk.  He just cut off the requested amount of the proper hose and exchanged it, so I got EFI hose for hte price of carb hose, lol.

 

Anyway, I did a quick look up, online, at NAPA and that's the price for J30R9 hose so you are probably ok.  The carb stuff is half that.

 

The carb stuff is only rated to 50 psi, EFI to 225 psi, Didn't want you to have an engine fire.

[Los_Control]

Ok been a few days, but back at it. My garage is such a mess right now with the caravan ripped into a million pieces and 2 engines torn apart to make one ..... I simply could not find my Teflon tape ..... so today I went down and bought more, this time I bought the yellow Teflon tape made for Natural gas pipe fittings. It is much stronger.

 

I did such a crappy job applying it last time trying to use it sparingly & keep it pretty ..... Not as pretty this time but no chance they leak.

 

 

 

So in the meantime I installed the axles .... Father inlaw put the cheapest Autozone axles on it .... The driver side never gave issues, passenger side he had to take them back for warranty 2 times ... 3rd time he paid up and bought the best lifetime guarantee axle and 20K miles is holding up fine ..... While the cheap driver side axle feels fine, the boot has a big hole in it. Instead of replacing the boot, I just bought a quality axle for it and replaced it. .... Axles are done.

 

So I'm working on the brakes .... The rotors while possibly serviceable were worn, was obvious the FIL put new pads on but not rotors. So I bought new rotors/pads ..... pads have 50-60% on them and no complaint on brakes ..... While I'm here I just need to fix them proper.

 

So here I am, the calipers work fine ... they look like crap .... I have proper fitting wrenches and tried everything and simply rounded the heads off trying to remove the pins. .... I just have the feeling FIL used red loctite on the threads .... I'm going to need heat to get them apart .... so I have new calipers on the way ..... I never wanted to take the brake lines loose, these things are screaming to be taken apart, cleaned up and painted.

 

Other then a DANG! There is another $100 .... I have plenty to keep me busy running vacuum & electrical lines .... plenum, alternator, power steering pump, radiator ... 🙄

[Los_Control]

I know I should not get hung up on paint .... Honestly I do no care what color the paint is.

I was so mad at myself when I installed a new water pump on the 49 Dodge .... I thought to paint it and then though that was silly .... Now it looks like rusted up crap and only a few months old.

 

My wife .... I thought you were going to paint them pink?

Me ..... I thought about it ..... pink would make your brakes wiggly, Race car red will improve your braking performance 30%.

I just used the paint I had on the shelf.

 

 

Been thrashing a few days on getting all installed, my body needs a break .... assemble the breaks is all thats on the agenda today.

[Sniper]

38 minutes ago, Los_Control said:

assemble the breaks

 

 

AHHHHHHH!   🤪

[Los_Control]

4 minutes ago, Sniper said:

AHHHHHHH!   🤪

Ok spelling police ..... Lets be fair, I think I assembled the brakes fine while managing the breaks