Way off topic 1993 caravan transmission

[Sniper]

One thing to remember, a refurbished ECM is likely really just one that has been repaired.  Most, if not all, of the components in there are original.

[Tooljunkie]

The 3.3 is a solid motor. One of the best v6’s i think. 
Did you use the on board diagnostics to pull codes? 

[Los_Control]

Thanks @Eneto-55good story, I enjoyed it. Sad the rust got it. This one has zero rust, never subjected to salt. Has history with my wife as it was her mothers car. They really are a great simple car.

 

@JBNealI think a known baseline is what am looking for. History goes back several  years  with the car.

A school teacher bought it new, mother inlaw was 2nd owner, now wife has it.

As far as I know this would be the first time the engine ever failed to start. Just been dead reliable.

Old school thinking, if 1 part fails the rest our right behind it. I could be wrong here.

I have a smaller 1994 John Deere LX172. I know what you mean about the board. Mine needed a new ignition switch.

It is actually part of the board. It is also the fuse panel for the pto, headlights etc. Just saying  you cant replace the switch without replacing the main logic board. Thinking I may just re-wire the whole thing. But with a added push button it starts fine.

 

@Sniper  You should have seen my eyes get as big as pie plates when I read your post. Of course you are correct. ???

I somehow thought they had boxes of new boards and they just used your old case and replaced the guts.

I did a quick research on how they were rebuilt. And I should have known better. Yeah if mine is working I may as well keep it.

 

@TooljunkieDid you use the on board diagnostics to pull codes? 

Why  do I always forget that option exist? I think it is 3 times turning the key on & off, End with the key on and count the flashes. I  have done this in the past ...  I may be wrong on the procedure.

I just turned the key 10 times. I get all the normal lights, seatbelt,low oil, check gauges etc... but no response from the computer. No flashes to count to diagnose? 

I need to double  check the procedure, but I remember it being really simple.   No contact from the computer?                                           

 

[Sniper]

Hey, I was an electronics tech in the navy.  I know that when we repaired boards we just replaced the bad component(s) and put it back in service.  If I were to repair something like your ECU, at it's age, I would at least replace all the electrolytic capacitors as well, they do have a lifespan.

 

The job I do now we have a lifecycle extension program for some of our older, but no longer in production, units.  Part of that is replacing all the boards with new manufacture ones.  If they spring for this update it extends the life 15 years, theoretically. 

[kencombs]

1 hour ago, Los_Control said:

Thanks @Eneto-55good story, I enjoyed it. Sad the rust got it. This one has zero rust, never subjected to salt. Has history with my wife as it was her mothers car. They really are a great simple car.

 

@JBNealI think a known baseline is what am looking for. History goes back several  years  with the car.

A school teacher bought it new, mother inlaw was 2nd owner, now wife has it.

As far as I know this would be the first time the engine ever failed to start. Just been dead reliable.

Old school thinking, if 1 part fails the rest our right behind it. I could be wrong here.

I have a smaller 1994 John Deere LX172. I know what you mean about the board. Mine needed a new ignition switch.

It is actually part of the board. It is also the fuse panel for the pto, headlights etc. Just saying  you cant replace the switch without replacing the main logic board. Thinking I may just re-wire the whole thing. But with a added push button it starts fine.

 

@Sniper  You should have seen my eyes get as big as pie plates when I read your post. Of course you are correct. ???

I somehow thought they had boxes of new boards and they just used your old case and replaced the guts.

I did a quick research on how they were rebuilt. And I should have known better. Yeah if mine is working I may as well keep it.

 

@TooljunkieDid you use the on board diagnostics to pull codes? 

Why  do I always forget that option exist? I think it is 3 times turning the key on & off, End with the key on and count the flashes. I  have done this in the past ...  I may be wrong on the procedure.

I just turned the key 10 times. I get all the normal lights, seatbelt,low oil, check gauges etc... but no response from the computer. No flashes to count to diagnose? 

I need to double  check the procedure, but I remember it being really simple.   No contact from the computer?                                           

 

try this:

https://www.2carpros.com/articles/retrieve-trouble-codes-for-chrysler-dodge-plymouth-odb1-1995-and-earlier-car-mini-van-and-light-trucks

[Tooljunkie]

On off on off on 

its been a while, i may have to dig out a book. 

Edited September 10, 2021 by Tooljunkie

[Tooljunkie]

I recall something back then, bad fuse for the power point or something,and ecm wont wake up. But if starter engages,then the ecm still has some functions. Crank sensor, that was real common. As im thinking about the various 3.3 powered stuff. Lebaron, new yorker intrepids. 
i bet there is no injector pulse too. 

[Los_Control]

12. Memory to controller has been cleared within 50-100 engine starts.

11. Camshaft signal or ignition signal, no reference signal during cranking.

51. Air/fuel at limit.

24. Throttle position sensor voltage high/low.

24. Throttle position sensor voltage high/low.

55. End of message.

 

11 Makes sense. 51,24 not really sure ... Wife said it was acting as if it was running out of gas. So it was misfiring. More fuel then spark?

I really thought showing code 24 twice was a mistake on  my part. I kept reading the codes and got better each time at it, I am convinced the code was repeated twice. I could be wrong though 

 

Either way the new coil and ASD relay came in today.  So I started testing, I have 12 volts going to the  coil for 1 second with key on. But no12 volt signal when cranking.

Next step is to unplug the crank sensor ... Now if a signal at coil your crank sensor is bad. Still no signal move to test cam sensor.

 

The crank sensor is a real pita to unplug. Need to be a contortionist. But if you remove the bolt holding it, the wiring harness comes back in your direction and can unplug/replace in minutes.  Will be same with cam sensor.

Tomorrow am ordering new ones.

Absolutely no buyers remorse buying the coil or  relay. I am ordering new crank & cam sensors tomorrow.

I am hoping the ECM is good ... I really do not have much faith in refurbished ones. It is what it is.

[Tooljunkie]

I cant remember, if the depth of the crank sensor is critical. 
loosesned bolt, and if sensor goes any deeper in the hole, tone ring on flywheel will damage sensor. It needs to be installed with a paper spacer. 
I think. It was 20 years ago. 

[Los_Control]

13 minutes ago, Tooljunkie said:

I cant remember, if the depth of the crank sensor is critical.

Seems it is very critical, new one comes with a cardboard spacer. I really cant remove and re-install without a new spacer.

Little tricks to follow when installing.

 

Same with cam sensor. The body is wedged shape for proper thickness. I have to be certain to have it fully inserted for proper spacing.

Not properly spaced will cause a no start issue with either sensor.

Never replacing sensors before this concerns me, I figure knowing is 1/2 the battle.

[Tooljunkie]

22 hours ago, Los_Control said:

Seems it is very critical, new one comes with a cardboard spacer. I really cant remove and re-install without a new spacer.

Little tricks to follow when installing.

 

Same with cam sensor. The body is wedged shape for proper thickness. I have to be certain to have it fully inserted for proper spacing.

Not properly spaced will cause a no start issue with either sensor.

Never replacing sensors before this concerns me, I figure knowing is 1/2 the battle.

When i was at the dealership, there was a bin with the spacers for the crank sensors. It was a thick piece of paper with a light adhesive. Have to install it when there is no window below sensor. When the trigger window went by it would sweep off the paper button. 

[Los_Control]

Thats the trick I have been reading about.

Would be common for someone like me, to think the paper was to protect the sensor during packaging & remove it before installation.

In reality it is the tool  that sets the proper gap for the sensor and needed during installation.

 

I think the new sensor comes with a paper spacer, I ordered a extra spacer just to have spare one in case.

 

The link to carpro.com is pretty interesting. They claim that a camshaft sensor can  fail, could cause some hesitation or strange symptoms. Will throw a code. But the engine will still run, since the ECM gets it's information from the crankshaft sensor, has enough information to bypass the failed cam sensor.

 

 

I have the code for no camshaft sensor signal. When cold sometimes it will die at a stop sign, never while driving. Drive for 15 min and will not die anymore.

Seems possible I have been driving for some time with a bad camshaft sensor, now the crankshaft sensor has failed and will not start?

So even if the car runs after replacing the crankshaft sensor, I feel I need to replace the camshaft sensor also.

 

Here is what carpros says about it. I do not know if it is true.

 

Symptoms of a Bad Camshaft Sensor

When a cam sensor goes bad it will cause the check engine light to come on and produce a trouble code. It can also cause the engine to run rough while the car is at cruising speed or at idle. Due to the lack of feedback information to the computer this sensor problem can cause an engine stumble or hesitation. Though some think the engine will not start if this sensor goes out but this is simply not true because the computer will always use the crankshaft angle sensor to allow the engine to run.

[Tooljunkie]

Cam has a tone ring,with equal spacing. Crank has un-equal spacing to determine firing order. Crankshaft starts the process,cam fine tunes it. 

[Dave72dt]

On a '98 2.5 Chrysler DOHC v6 with a failed cam sensor, it will not run, even with a functioning crank sensor!  It is built into the distributor so the entire distributor must be replaced at a cost of 125.00 and up, depending on source.  It does not have  a tone ring on the cam but is driven off the end of it.  While the generalizations for crank and cam sensors are true for the most part, there are exceptions.  Just another reason to test first.

[Los_Control]

w00t Lady Belle is alive again!

Finally got a chance to mess with it yesterday, I have had the crank sensor for a week, been holding off and waiting for cam sensor to arrive. It came yesterday.

Changed the crank sensor and checked for spark, all was fine ... wife was working the key. I plugged in the coil pack told her to try it one more time. She was surprised when it fired right up like normal.

 

Really sounded terrible, either a really bad lifter or a rod knocking ... My first thought is the crank sensor in too far and hitting. I moved it out just a hair .034 is proper gap.  Changed nothing. I was bummed 

So after starting engine several times, drove it around the block once ... Drive it and see if it blows up 

Started it up in the driveway and was quiet again.

On 9/13/2021 at 6:19 PM, Tooljunkie said:

Cam has a tone ring,with equal spacing. Crank has un-equal spacing to determine firing order. Crankshaft starts the process,cam fine tunes it. 

Now I think the computer was re-learning with the new crank sensor, and struggling because it has a bad cam sensor.

 

Anyways just happy she is up and running, I am happy the computer is still working. I still need to replace the cam sensor but Lady Belle  lives on 

[Los_Control]

On 9/23/2021 at 5:21 PM, Los_Control said:

Anyways just happy she is up and running, I am happy the computer is still working. I still need to replace the cam sensor but Lady Belle  lives on 

Well that was short lived.  Ran great around town, first time on the highway at 75mph she blew up.

 

I am certain I had something to do with it. No clue what though. Car ran and sounded fine. First time on the highway and engine came apart.

Got it home today and just wanted to see if it was locked up ... I turned the key and it tried to start ... I wont try again because no oil in it.

 

Wife said it sounded fine and driving home ... just blew up.  She has driven the van from Seattle to Texas twice and 3 times from Texas to Albuquerque .. she knows how it should run.

 

I am kinda bummed, I am sure me being a idiot replacing the crank sensor caused a problem ... I am now in the market for a good used engine and replacing it.

[Los_Control]

On 9/29/2021 at 3:55 PM, Los_Control said:

I am sure me being a idiot replacing the crank sensor caused a problem ...

Think what I really meant was, I was a idiot for letting the wife drive the car before I changed the cam sensor.  Oh well.

 

Been doing some more thinking about it, Yes I did have a code for no signal from cam sensor. That was after the crank sensor failed ... seems natural would also be no signal from cam ... After getting it running I needed to clear the codes and then check again to see if the issue was still there.

In my defense, I already had a new cam sensor sitting on the bench, wife was happy to have her car running and asked if I could wait a few days before working on it some more.

 

Giving it more thought, the van has just under 190k miles on it.

If the timing chain was getting stretched, the computer would compensate and adjust for the timing fluctuations. Hiding the symptoms.

When it did the dance, was always around town when you are letting off the gas pedal and coasting. Under load it did not dance it ran great. Sooo, wife cruising 75mph speed limit, creeps up to 80mph ... lets off the gas ... computer trying to compensate the fluctuating timing, kap0w! I have a 3" hole in the side of the block.

Thats my best WAG until I get the motor out and look closer at it.

[Los_Control]

So I bought the cheapest used motor I could find  

Pretty amazing how prices fluctuate on used motors from one wrecking yard to the next.

carpart.com I found them from $145-$650 and a rebuilt for $2k. All of them were 3.5 hours one way or more to go pick up.

 

I called a local yard 1.5 hours away, asked them. They had 1 for $350. Cool, how many miles or compression check?

He just laughed. "Son I put that motor in the shed 8 or 10 years ago, I got no idea about it ... Must have been good or would not have kept it"

I offered $250 because it been sitting 10 years & he accepted.

 

So thats what I am working with.  The yard owner pointed out the pan was leaking, looks like they bumped the drain plug with the fork lift ... thats fine, looks like a easy fix pull & weld or replace with mine.

I wanted to get a reading off of the plugs. Dang things are just too new to get a good reading other then it does not show

anything bad.  While I would change the 02 sensor while out, is just as new as the plugs.

I have been soaking the cylinders with oil and turning it over daily for a week ... It has good compression, it will run but have no idea about it ... Trying to not go down the rabbit hole and rebuild it ...

Just accept a $250 motor and run it .... but while it is sitting on the stand ... just how far do we go? 

[Sniper]

Well, since you have to pull the pan a look at the bearings will tell you something.

[Los_Control]

8 minutes ago, Sniper said:

Well, since you have to pull the pan a look at the bearings will tell you something.

Yes sir think I will take a look at them.

With the intake manifold installed, it hangs over the right valve cover and top heavy & awkward on the engine stand.

Going to have to pull the intake, to safely be able to turn the engine on the stand to pull the pan.

 

I will take a look at the timing chain .... Obvious I will have a complete engine gasket set. So may as well change the valve cover gaskets while there .... Do I pull the heads & mic the cylinders? Heck if it looks good, may as well slap in some new ring & bearings just to freshen it up. .... It's a rabbit hole! 

 

Wife laughs and says it will make a nice winter project .... I have a pilothouse that is my project 

One side of me is saying  "it is a $250 used motor, drive it & smile.

The other side is saying, well it is already on the engine stand, may as well pull it apart and check everything.

 

 

[Sniper]

Ah yes, the rabbit hole, BTDT.  This disc brake project of mine sort of turned into one.  Figured while I am there I may as well replace the tie rod ends.  I can find three of the four, but that fourth one seems NS1 (Mopar speak for no longer available) from most of the usual suspects.  I can get one, for $$$.  So I am investigating a much cheaper possibility.  More as I learn it in another post.

 

Then there is the snowball, which is not to be confused with a rabbit hole, a rabbit hole consists of the thinking "well while I am here..."  A snow ball consist of stuff you find that has to be addressed in the course of doing something else.  Back to the disc brake swap, the knuckles and uprights have a bit of free play so they are at the machine shop getting new bushings and king pins fitted. 

[Tooljunkie]

Crank sensor removed for engine swap. 
you never know,it could be a low mileage engine. Spark plugs installed in factory have a drop of paint on wire connector tip. 

[Los_Control]

6 hours ago, Tooljunkie said:

Crank sensor removed for engine swap. 

Good tip. would certainly destroy the new sensor if left in place.

 

Playing detective, the 02 sensor is suggested to change at 80k miles.

Modern oem plugs can last 100k miles?

Is seeping some oil from the front seal, my old engine does the same. Will be 1/2 a quart low at 3500-4k miles. Not concerning but not low miles. Bare min this engine has 100k , could easily be 150k.

Our transmission needed to be rebuilt at 150k. Possible it was a good running engine and trans failed so they junked it?

 

All WAG, but I would bet it has 120k-150k. Appears to been taken care of, but not low miles.

 

Trying to not break into savings for a project like this. So bought the motor and engine gasket set this month.

Waiting til next week/month to buy a engine crane. My chain hoist would work fine on the pilothouse .... not so good on a fwd car that needs to be on jack stands .... so papa gets a new tool and moma is happy about it. 

 

Life lesson here. I own 3 vehicles.  My cheby truck, wife caravan & project pilothouse.

Sometimes just having the project is fun ... play with it when you get a chance. Would not take much to get it licensed and running. Finish the rear brake lines, wire harness, charging system etc... It needs a lot of work, but would not take too much to actually get it on the road.

If the pilothouse was on the road & a backup vehicle if needed. The 150K mile used motor on the stand would get freshened up.

I just feel a sense of urgency to get the caravan back on the road as soon as possible. If anything happens to the cheby I am walking.

The urgency is now transferred to getting the pilothouse driving & licensed. I'm now thinking of it as a 3rd vehicle more then a project.

Maybe this is the kick in the pants I need to get the pilothouse back on the road. 

 

I have owned a 4th vehicle a Dakota .... no good parking space for it, extra insurance cost, very little use.  I sold it a year ago ... not interested in a 4th vehicle.

[Tooljunkie]

Shop crane. A must have. All wheels should swivel unlike mine, two at the end of the long arms are rigid. I have to kick it sideways if i dont line it up right. I added the air/hydraulic to it. Worth the money for me. I do use mine often. 

[Los_Control]

23 minutes ago, Tooljunkie said:

Shop crane. A must have.

Really torn up about what to get. Pretty much convinced going to Harbor freight to get one.

Tractor supply sells one for $100 more then Harbor freight. Nothing else near me.

 

I plan to use it a few times, but not many. My small garage I really have no place to keep it there ... otherwise I will use my garden tractor and tow it to the garden shed and store it there. Pull it out every few years and use it when needed.

Why I do not have one now.

 

We know to buy the best tools we can afford .... but when you going to store them here, just not excited about buying the best available. Roof over it but dirt floor & no doors.

So choice is the 1 ton or the 2 ton. I want it fold-able either should work?  Figure it out next couple weeks.

 

 

Edited October 27, 2021 by Los_Control