Pistons, Rods and Crank and Camshafts

[billrigsby]

 

 

Stopped by the machine shop to pick up the block. Got to talking and he suggested I leave it and once I have the pistons, cam bearings, original connecting rods, main bearing caps and camshaft, drop them off and he can check the big end of the rods and possibly get started.

I was going through my parts and ‘of course’ have some questions.

The block I am using is a T306 218ci Dodge Truck B-3-B, B-4-B  1951-1953, so I cannot use the rods from that one to get a 230. I checked the rods from my original engine, which was supposed to be a 230 and it has the same rods, (numbers and measurements). The engine I just disassembled was the D34 230ci Dodge Car Dodge 6 Custom 1950. It has the shorter (by 1/8” rods) so it is a 230.

Questions…..

·         I need .030 over pistons, best source?  I see Egge and Clegg have kits, Terrill does piecemeal.

·         The rods I need to use for a 230 are the shorter ones, I have a NOS crankshaft I want to use, P/N on box is 2120887,

          I cannot determine if it is correct?

          I need to match it up to the 230 crank that came out of the Dodge car engine. 218 and 230 cranks are different,

          to get the different stroke, correct?

·         If the NOS crank is correct, I would need standard size main and rod bearings, Correct?

·         Is there a difference between a 218 and 230 camshafts?

·         How do you determine what size camshaft bearings you need, none of the sites list sizes, just how much over?

 

The Egge kit comes with;

Engine Rebuilding Gasket Set (without Rear Main Seal):Rear Main Seal - Rubber (inside block)

Rear Main Seal - Steel/Rubber, Egge Piston Set with Pins, Valve Spring, Oil Pump, Piston Ring Set

Valve Lifter, Connecting Rod Bearing, Pin Bushing, Main Bearing Set, Reground Camshaft

Camshaft Sprocket, Crankshaft Sprocket, Timing Chain, Exhaust Valve, Intake Valve, Valve Guide

 

The Clegg kit is smaller;

 Complete Gasket set (Including seals), Pistons, Rings, Rod Bearings, Main Bearings, Cam Bearings, Oil Pump, Freeze Plugs, Pin Bushings, Timing Kit

 

Not sure what route to go, does all this (cam, sprockets, etc. need to be replaced? This is a bit new to me, don’t want to fudge it up.

 

 

Thanks

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 16, 2020 by billrigsby

[bkahler]

I could be wrong but I thought the crank is what made the difference between a 218 and a 230.  I've always assumed the 230 crank had a slightly longer throw.  Hopefully someone will correct me if I'm wrong

 

Brad

 

[Jeff Balazs]

My two cents worth. I would advise you to use a gasket set made by Best. Anything else seems to fall short these days. Especially when it comes to the head gasket.

Hth, Jeff

[billrigsby]

13 minutes ago, bkahler said:

I could be wrong but I thought the crank is what made the difference between a 218 and a 230.  I've always assumed the 230 crank had a slightly longer throw.  Hopefully someone will correct me if I'm wrong

 

Brad

 

Yes, I'm sure that is correct, but I am also under the impression that a 230 rod is just ever so slightly shorter than a 218 rod.

7 13/16 center to center vs 7 15/16 if I remember correctly.

[billrigsby]

20 hours ago, Jeff Balazs said:

My two cents worth. I would advise you to use a gasket set made by Best. Anything else seems to fall short these days. Especially when it comes to the head gasket.

Hth, Jeff

 

I have not heard of that brand, but I will look into them. One of the kits comes with Fel-Pro and I have always had good luck with those.

Edited October 17, 2020 by billrigsby

[DJ194950]

59 minutes ago, billrigsby said:

Yes, I'm sure that is correct, but I am also under the impression that a 230 rod is just ever so slightly shorter than a 218 rod.

7 13/16 center to center vs 7 15/16 if I remember correctly.

230 Crank stroke  is longer therefore rods need to be shorter. Otherwise the pistons would come out of the top of the block opon reaching TDC,

 

See attached for crank casting numbers that should answer what crank you have bought.

 

Info from enginepartswarehouse.com

 

DJ

Edited October 16, 2020 by DJ194950
Got the email address for source.

[Merle Coggins]

Yup... 218 crank with 230 rods would leave the pistons short at the top of the stroke, reducing the squeeze. 230 crank with 218 rods would punch the pistons into the head. They must match. 

 

As for oversized pistons. Have your machine shop check their sources. When I had my block bored the machine shop sourced the pistons and rings for me and made sure the bores were honed to match the pistons. I don’t remember the brand, but there are available from pretty much any reputable engine parts supplier. 

 

On the cam bearings... oversize would refer to the block bore, if you had to align bore the cam journals. If you didn’t need to do that you likely need standard bearings. If in doubt, have them measure the block bore and cam journals for you. 

Edited October 17, 2020 by Merle Coggins

[JBNeal]

Timing chain and sprockets need to be replaced as a set; also, chain oiler needs to be cleaned and re-installed...

 

additional information - engine rebuilding

[billrigsby]

19 hours ago, DJ194950 said:

230 Crank stroke  is longer therefore rods need to be shorter. Otherwise the pistons would come out of the top of the block opon reaching TDC,

 

See attached for crank casting numbers that should answer what crank you have bought.

 

Info from enginepartswarehouse.com

 

DJ

 

 

 

 

That does shed a beacon of light on the situation, all four I have are listed,

 

 

 

 

Not much difference that I can tell, if I am measuring correctly, only about 3/16",

and the rod difference is 1/8", does that sound correct.

 

Regardless the NOS Crank is for a 230, that's what mattered.

[billrigsby]

7 hours ago, Merle Coggins said:

Yup... 218 crank with 230 rods would leave the pistons short at the top of the stroke, reducing the squeeze. 230 crank with 218 rods would punch the pistons into the head. They must match. 

 

As for oversized pistons. Have your machine shop check their sources. When I had my block bored the machine shop sourced the pistons and rings for me and made sure the bores were honed to match the pistons. I don’t remember the brand, but there are available from pretty much any reputable engine parts supplier. 

 

On the cam bearings... oversize would refer to the block bore, if you had to align bore the cam journals. If you didn’t need to do that you likely need standard bearings. If in doubt, have them measure the block bore and cam journals for you. 

 

I get the impression he would rather I provide the parts, unless he was building the entire short block.

I am ok with that, then he wants the piston, rods, etc. to bore and hone to fit

 

As far as the cam bearings, that is what I thought, I will double check with him to see if it needs line boring before the purchase.

 

Opinions on best piston brand, any idea what Terrill Machine carries?

[Jeff Balazs]

The head gasket in the Felpro set is  IMO  the weak point. I had problems with mine after about a year and went to the Best Brand per advice from some of my Mechanic buddies. It has been fine in daily use. My mechanic buddies won't use Felpro head gaskets anymore after having several fail.

Jeff

[billrigsby]

4 minutes ago, Jeff Balazs said:

The head gasket in the Felpro set is  IMO  the weak point. I had problems with mine after about a year and went to the Best Brand per advice from some of my Mechanic buddies. It has been fine in daily use. My mechanic buddies won't use Felpro head gaskets anymore after having several fail.

Jeff

 

Good to know, another recommendation for Best Gaskets, will definitely check them out.

Any thoughts on Piston/Ring brands?

[Merle Coggins]

It's been a long time, but I seem to recall Clevite and/or Seal Power on my pistons and rings. 

[Adam H P15 D30]

What I would do:

Get a catalog 

Use the 230 crank

Use the 218 rods

Find a modern piston with an acceptable bore size and correct height for your crank/rod combo

Balance the assembly

 

Pros are - longer rod, modern piston design, modern ring pack

[billrigsby]

 

I think I am near to reaching a decision on engine parts. Been in contact with Terrill, Egge and Clegg. Here is the breakdown of parts.

 

 

Terrill is not quick to respond, may need to call, but he did say that pistons are from a company that makes them for him, I would not have heard of?

Egge, is obviously selling their own pistons, they are awfully proud of all their stuff ($300 - Oil Pump)!

I have heard of most of the brands that Clegg has in their kit, except Silvolite Pistons, still waiting to hear if you choose the brand on those,

but will probably go with Clegg, their kit comes with Fel-Pro gasket set, but they will remove and deduct the cost, I'll go with Best.

 

Is it necessary to replace cam followers (tappets)? Only the Egge kit comes with them ($245), Terrill did not list them as available.

Does anyone rebuild their oil pumps or just replace, I have a few to choose from?

 

Silvolite Pistons and Engine Pro (USA) timing kits, anyone heard of either?

 

 

 

Thanks!

[kencombs]

3 hours ago, billrigsby said:

Is it necessary to replace cam followers (tappets)? Only the Egge kit comes with them ($245), Terrill did not list them as available.

Does anyone rebuild their oil pumps or just replace, I have a few to choose from?

 

Silvolite Pistons and Engine Pro (USA) timing kits, anyone heard of either?

 

 

 

Thanks!

I took my cam and lifters to a local engine rebuilder.  Had the cam polished and lifters reground.  Mainly because I had a warped cam and had to use a spare.   Defective oil pumps are not really common.  I'd first open it up, clean and inspect for wear or scoring, then decide.

 

Silvolite is a common name with a good rep.  Engine pro???