'52 wayfarer engine swap

[eddie spaghetti]

So, this is my very first post on a board I had been reading for a few weeks.

 I have been given a Dodge business coupe, somewhat complete, but very rough, out side storage many years, mice and squirrels, etc.

  I have a 331 from a 1954 Windsor, I have had this engine since 1977.

 It is time to either use or sell the 331.

 can a hemi fit in this car without major surgery?

 Thanks.

Eddie

Edited September 7, 2020 by eddie spaghetti
spelling

[Andydodge]

Eddie, Welcome aboard the good ship Mopar, as for fitting the Hemi, well it depends on your definition of major surgery.........lol.........the main issue is going to be clearance for the steering column, generally most V8 installs will require the offsetting of the engine 1-2" to the passenger side to gain enough clearance, tho' until you trial fit the engine you won't know how much, also the height of the engine in the engine bay will affect the clearance, also what sort of gearbox is attached or planned to be attached to the hemi?.......Hot Heads and Wilcap offer a range of trans adaptors which may open up the choice, also don't forget that the rear axle while may hold together for gentle use of the hemi you won't have a parking brake if you use a non stock style trans as the brake lives on the end of the stock transmission...........and swapping in disc brakes is a definate plus.........so, me being a hotrodder likes the Hemi idea a LOT.........lol........but I've had a 318 Poly in my 1940 Dodge since 1973 so I'm not the most unbiased person you'll find on here, but your idea sounds fine to me..............got any pics?......we all love pics.........lol.........so Welcome Aboard.............Andy Douglas    

[knuckleharley]

2 hours ago, eddie spaghetti said:

So, this is my very first post on a board I had been reading for a few weeks.

 I have been given a Dodge business coupe, somewhat complete, but very rough, out side storage many years, mice and squirrels, etc.

  I have a 331 from a 1954 Windsor, I have had this engine since 1977.

 It is time to either use or sell the 331.

 can a hemi fit in this car without major surgery?

 Thanks.

Eddie

No. Sell it and go with a small block. You will be glad you did.

Yeah,it can be done,but it's not the type of swap for someone who doesn't have a lot of experience with engine swaps wants to tackle.

Great swap for a 20's or 30's fenderless car,but just not worth the trouble otherwise.

[Dodgeb4ya]

The Hemi will cost you tons of $$$ too.

[knuckleharley]

11 minutes ago, Dodgeb4ya said:

The Hemi will cost you tons of $$$ too.

Not to mention the added expense of having all the cutting and welded fab work done unless you have done this sort of thing in the past,and have the tools and experience to do it right.

And when you get through,you have spent all that time and money to install an engine that makes less power than a 318 or 360,and nobody can even see it unless your hood is raised.

Maybe the best advise I received when I was a kid interested in learning how to build hot rods,and was told "don't fight gravity".

[RobertKB]

We have no idea of the year of the car you are talking about. That can make quite a difference. Lots of members have done upgrades to their flat sixes and/or put in different transmissions or rear ends to improve highway speeds. Check out things  before making a decision.

 

Condition of the car is also a factor. Are you prepared to do all the other necessary work. I’m not being negative, just realistic. It takes a lot of time and money to bring a car back from the grave. Been there, done that. 
 

 

 

 

Edited September 8, 2020 by RobertKB

[eddie spaghetti]

To Robert KB, the year of the car is in the title of the thread. Dodge b4ya, the 331 is brand new, never been in a car, came from Lehigh University from a power mechanics class in the 1950's, so no cost.

  My last big swap was a 383, complete with push button shifter , into a 1950 Chevy 3100 5 window.

 welding and fab is no problem, I just don't want to have to split the front of the frame, add 3 or so inches of width, just to get the engine between the suspension members.

 I have figured the heater box will have to go, also probably move the battery as well. Just wanted to see if anybody knew of this swap being done?

 Thinking of using the original fluid drive trans.

 All for now, thanks.

[greg g]

Steering box clearences is an issue.  Mother Mopar solved this by mounting v8s 2 inches or so to the passenger side. Exhaust routing might be a concern also This might mean some surgery on the trans hump.and floor, and firewall. Lots of folks worry about weight but the hemi and the flathead six are in the same weight class.

[eddie spaghetti]

2 hours ago, knuckleharley said:

No. Sell it and go with a small block. You will be glad you did.

Yeah,it can be done,but it's not the type of swap for someone who doesn't have a lot of experience with engine swaps wants to tackle.

Great swap for a 20's or 30's fenderless car,but just not worth the trouble otherwise.

I hear you about the fenderless car, I have had my eyes on a pair of 1935 Dodge Brothers pickups, thought there may be enough between the two to make one runner, stick my 331 in there , leave off the side cowls off.

they have been sitting in a swamp for 40 years, time has not been kind to them, no frame left to speak of.

[eddie spaghetti]

For Andy, yea, the rear axle looks a bit skimpy what with the keyed and bolted hubs &such.

 Was thinking of using a 9 inch truck rear from a '63 f-100 that has been laying about for years, or maybe giving up the 8 3/4 posi I salvaged from a '71 'cuda

9 inch ford is 3.89 ratio,

8 3/4 is 3.55 ratio. I think the 8 3/4 has the right bolt circle.

[knuckleharley]

l

23 minutes ago, eddie spaghetti said:

I hear you about the fenderless car, I have had my eyes on a pair of 1935 Dodge Brothers pickups, thought there may be enough between the two to make one runner, stick my 331 in there , leave off the side cowls off.

they have been sitting in a swamp for 40 years, time has not been kind to them, no frame left to speak of.

Yeah,removing the hood side panels is a big help. You still have steering box issues,though. I have never done it myself,but I have been told the rack and pinion steering boxes are the way to go now.

[knuckleharley]

10 minutes ago, knuckleharley said:

lro

Yeah,removing the hood side panels is a big help. You still have steering box issues,though. I have never done it myself,but I have been told the rack and pinion steering boxes are the way to go now.

There were a lot of guys back in the 50's and 60's that would take a pu cab and channel it over a 30's Ford chassis,and make sorta a "T-bucket with a top" hot rod out of them.

 

I have a FE/390 Ford in my 37 Dodge 1 ton now,although mine is not channeled and has the hood and sides on it. Not much room for stuff like power steering,air compressor,pb booster,etc,etc,etc,though.

[Dodgeb4ya]

1 hour ago, greg g said:

Steering box clearences is an issue.  Mother Mopar solved this by mounting v8s 2 inches or so to the passenger side. Exhaust routing might be a concern also This might mean some surgery on the trans hump.and floor, and firewall. Lots of folks worry about weight but the hemi and the flathead six are in the same weight class.

331 Hemi weighs 700 lbs. Google online everywhere

218/230 445lbs. VPW shipped on crate

No generator or starters.?

Edited September 8, 2020 by Dodgeb4ya

[eddie spaghetti]

"331 Hemi weighs 700 lbs. Google online everywhere

218/230 445lbs. VPW shipped on crate"

 

 300# or so more on the front end is a big deal.

 Perhaps time to find something lighter.

 Original engine rusted solid, cylinder head removed for I don't know how long, open for all to see.

  A 300 ford 6 is sitting on my shelf,(complete with c6 trans) looking for a use,it may be the easiest.

 Was kinda thinking all mopar would have been nice, but I need to use what I have.

 Haven't had any spare LA motors for a long while.

 Thanks for your interest.

 Eddie

[Andydodge]

Eddie......sounds like you have done the odd engine swap so you should be able to do this.........as mentioned I installed a 318 poly in my 1940 Dodge in 1973......I was 19 and taught myself to weld & fabricate, was in a hot rod club and a few mates helped re setting the engine up but it wasn't that much trouble, just remove the complete front clip, old eengine/trans and front floor and off I went.....eventually after trying different methods realised that the stock steering box & column wasn't gunna work so ended up installing a Morris Minor rack & pinion.........that worked for a while but after a couple of years realised it was not coping very well so found a rack & pinion from an Austin 1800, narrowed it 9" and installed that, has been there since, about 1985, works well.......if I was doing it all again I'd mount the Poly higher and to the passenger side but we all learn as we go along............as for the weight issue the 318 Poly would weigh close to the 331 Hemi and I have kept the original 1962 Chrysler Cast Iron Torqueflite trans which weighs a couple of hundred pound........lol........I originally cut one coil from the front end, then installed mid 50's Ford front coils which were a little bit thicker, the car also has 4 wheel discs, the front are oz 11" Leyland vented discs the rears are a complete 1990 Oz Ford LSD with solid discs........the car has been on the road as a hotrod since 1973 and you can do things if you want them badly enough............have attached a couple of pics.......the difference in weight is only an extra 250lbs with the hemi............so long as the coild sare o/k, they should be fine......certainly new shocks and rebuild the front suspension , new disc brakes and it should be good to go...much better than a Frod 6.lol..........your cars front suspension is the same essentially as my 1940 Dodge......I swapped in 1941-56 stub axles, a stock shaped but 1" thick custom made sway bar, adjustable heim jointed links, relocated upper shock mounts, thicker coils and disc brakes.....handles well..see pic.....regards from Australia...........Andy Douglas  

[Adam H P15 D30]

The steering is the biggest concern but expect to modify the firewall and inner fenders also.  Depending on the transmission you choose, floorboards will need to be fabbed too.

 

I clipped mine with a front steer GM.  My HEMI is offset 1.5 inches to the pass side but as you can see the steering is real close.  I'm not sure how a stock steering box could fit in there.

 

My firewall, mostly to clear the heads but also setting the engine several inches back.

 

With the firewall mods and a GM waterpump conversion, it puts the accessories 2 inches from the radiator.

[eddie spaghetti]

Adam I did not know about a gm pump conversion.

 I do know the stock pump is huge.

 Stock oil filter sticks out quite far as well, I have seen relocation kits.

 Hemi may go in here after all.

Looks like steering box is the booger.

 I will use stock exhaust manifolds, they seem to fit fairly close to the engine.

 Thanks for all your interest. eddie

[eddie spaghetti]

Andy, my last car with a poly was a 1966 Coronet.

  I tried as hard as I could to blow up the 318, as a 440  was sitting on my dad's garage floor, needing something to power.

 Dad would not let me pull a working engine from a running car.

 Eddie.

[Adam H P15 D30]

17 minutes ago, eddie spaghetti said:

Adam I did not know about a gm pump conversion.

 I do know the stock pump is huge.

 Stock oil filter sticks out quite far as well, I have seen relocation kits.

 Hemi may go in here after all.

Looks like steering box is the booger.

 I will use stock exhaust manifolds, they seem to fit fairly close to the engine.

 Thanks for all your interest. eddie

Find forum member Wayfarer, he has a site that deals with everything early HEMI.  https://www.qualityengineeredcomponents.com/

There is also Hot Heads.  http://www.hothemiheads.com/

I believe the original water pumps are still available (someone will correct me if needed) so if you have yours I would keep it.  Also, 54 is a wet intake with no water ports on the heads.  A little hard to find those...  

[knuckleharley]

5 hours ago, eddie spaghetti said:

"331 Hemi weighs 700 lbs. Google online everywhere

218/230 445lbs. VPW shipped on crate"

 

 300# or so more on the front end is a big deal.

 Perhaps time to find something lighter.

 Original engine rusted solid, cylinder head removed for I don't know how long, open for all to see.

  A 300 ford 6 is sitting on my shelf,(complete with c6 trans) looking for a use,it may be the easiest.

 Was kinda thinking all mopar would have been nice, but I need to use what I have.

 Haven't had any spare LA motors for a long while.

 Thanks for your interest.

 Eddie

If you have room for the 300,do it. You will end up with plenty of torque and lousy gas mileage,but you will be driving. Which beats the hell out of not driving.

 

You can always change it later if you want,and can justify the expense then.

[Andydodge]

Oil filters are easy to relocate using either aftermarket bits or what I did on the Poly and what is the same on the early Hemis is used the oil lines block plate from an LA 273/318/360 bolted onto the poly and then ran oil lines to the remote filter bracket and in my case thru an oil cooler in front of the radiator.......the attached pic is an old one but shows the remote filter and oil lines.......also I used the aftermarket mount as it takes the easy to find Z9 filter.........and  the Hemi gets my vote.........lol..........andyd 

[Adam H P15 D30]

RE: 300 inch 6 -  It would probably be less work to install the Hemi unless you want to move the firewall a lot.  Think driving from the back seat far....

[DJ194950]

Andy,

Did you include a anti-drain back valve in the oil pressure side of the system near the block off plate? Concerned me mostly because of the raised location and length of hose to reach to the filter and finally back to the motor.

 

Am I understanding correctly what you did?

 

DJ

[eddie spaghetti]

Adam, you think the 300 is that much longer than the flattie?

 regardless, I am leaning towards the 331, and the 8 3/4 rear, keeping mopar with mopar , as it is.

 May use the fluid drive, or may find a 904 tf,  I don't believe either will bolt right up, as my Hemi has the short bell.

 If I install the 8 3/4, at least I will have the parking brake problem solved.

 eddie

[Adam H P15 D30]

the 300 is probably a foot longer, you will be driving an "altered"

for the amount of work involved you have 2 results...

1. HEMI = cool

2. 300 = blah

Same work, different outcome but that's my opinion.

 

You will need an adapter unless you bolt a factory powerflite to it, see QEC link I posted above.  The 904 doesn't work because of starter location so it will be a 727 or 518 if you want an OD.

Hot Heads sells GM trans adapters if thats the route you wish to take.

Dump the F.D.

Edited September 9, 2020 by Adam H P15 D30