Engine Sputter & System Charging; Engine runs fine & no charge.

[kencombs]

There were a few internally resisted coils on Mopars in 56 I think.   They had a thermister in the coil base, a resistor that changed values when heated.  But, I saw one of those back in the early 60s.  And have never seen a diagram showing one.  Nor have I ever seen a documented difference in that area between a 6 or 8 cylinder.

 

Here is a link to another 56 diagram https://www.justanswer.com/classic-cars/1zvj4-looking-wiring-diagram-1956-dodge-truck.html.

 

I also have a 56, 1/2ton with a six, with a resistor.

Edit to add: patent info. https://patents.google.com/patent/US4099508A/en

Edit again to add:  best not to guess use your multimeter (or go buy a cheap one, really useful), set on ohm scale to check the actual resistance of your coil.

I made the mistake once when doing a engine swap into a chassis with a resistor.  Used a 'real' 12v coil in addition to the resistor  in the car harness.  Really hard starting when cold.

Edited July 18, 2020 by kencombs

[Plymouthy Adams]

49 minutes ago, Sniper said:

Mopar never used an internal resistor coil that I know of, but it doesn't hurt to check it.  Odd that the OP doesn't have a ballast and not sure what manual he has.  I expect to see a drawing like the following.

 

 

 

that is true..but many go into the store and ask for a 12 volt coil.....as all external resistor coils of oil filled are 6 volt carryover with resistors....many hand them a GM/Euro 12 volt internal coil.  This is why on the forum one must either list when asking pertinent data or answer when asked....one cannot assume anything as many times these cars have changed hands and been tweaked over the decades since leaving the factory.  

Edited July 18, 2020 by Plymouthy Adams

[Sniper]

So true, who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of your car, the Shadow know, lol

[Noah]

Well shoot. I put in a new distributor condensor and points, new plug wires, again, and the resistor. Now it doesn't show a charge and it's sputtering, opposite of what it was doing. Sputtering starts around 2500 Rpm if I were to guess. I did put a voltmeter on the battery and it was asking around 12.5, when I revved up some it did increase to 12.6, so it is charging, a little, maybe a bad ammeter? although it does show a discharge when I turn in the lights. Now I'm not so certain they're related issues.

[Plymouthy Adams]

did you install the points properly. The spring is no longer permanent part of the point but something you have to connect when installing.....

[Noah]

Well shoot. I put in a new distributor condensor and points, new plug wires, again, and the resistor. Now it doesn't show a charge and it's sputtering, opposite of what it was doing. Sputtering starts around 2500 Rpm if I were to guess. I did put a voltmeter on the battery and it was asking around 12.5, when I revved up some it did increase to 12.6, so it is charging, a little, maybe a bad ammeter? although it does show a discharge when I turn in the lights. Now I'm not so certain they're related issues.

 

Coil resistance is 1.6 and new ballast is 1.6.

 Attached is my wiring diagram. 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/16LFvcj0q4MOKsjiRXxlvhllcXD0WblA2/view?usp=drivesdk

 

Here are a couple videos.

(I know, probably shouldn't be doing that...)

Checking fuel flow, bowl seems to be at good level and good spray. Might be able to here the high rpm miss

https://drive.google.com/file/d/15vSqI8a28R6Z3jEkjcHWHF78U7KKcACa/view?usp=drivesdk

Spark is ok, does seem weak, light blue orange. 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/16LjDm-yGrRTMCn5MEFDbA-RaqzAR4pIY/view?usp=drivesdk

Sniper, can you explain if I need to polarize the regulator. Quick Google search said no, just the generator. 

[Noah]

42 minutes ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

did you install the points properly. The spring is no longer permanent part of the point but something you have to connect when installing.....

Yeah got the points correct.

[Sniper]

Attached are the instructions from Standard.

 

 

 

610019B.pdf

[Noah]

6 minutes ago, Sniper said:

Attached are the instructions from Standard.

 

 

 

610019B.pdf 144.57 kB · 0 downloads

Thanks. Same process to polarize generator.

[Noah]

I hooked up a tachometer and noticed when I slowly rev it will increase to about 25-2600. If I continue to increase throttle the Rpm decreases to 1700 area

Edited July 18, 2020 by Noah

[Tooljunkie]

13 hours ago, Noah said:

I hooked up a tachometer and noticed when I slowly rev it will increase to about 25-2600. If I continue to increase throttle the Rpm decreases to 1700 area

Timing is off, or carb needs overhaul. Im thinking carb/fuel delivery issue. 

[Noah]

1 hour ago, Tooljunkie said:

Timing is off, or carb needs overhaul. Im thinking carb/fuel delivery issue. 

I thought the same so I rotated the distributor to each max, advance and retarded, while throttled up and no change. Also why I cracked the carb open to see. It looks to be flowing ok, but maybe something that's hard to judge by looking. I'll take it out and clean it today although I did just rebuild and clean it within this last year. I'll start with the carb today and if nothing there I'll check compression. After that I'm out of ideas

[desoto1939]

when you rebuilt the carb and assuming you have a carter B&B carb did you put the two small ballbearings back in the correct locations?  even though the two ball bearings look the same becasue they are small they are two different sizes and if you get them revesed this can cause issues. Make sure you check this out.  Suggest that you get a carboard egg carton and my two or even a weekly pill tray and mark each opening with a a number.

 

As you disassemble the carb put the first part into the number 1 slot and continue inthe same manner until totaly disasembled when following the instruction sheet.  Then when starting to rebuid just start with the last part inthe last holder slot and rebuild this way you know you are getting the parts put back in the correct order.

 

Rich Hartung

Desoto1939@aol.com

[Noah]

3 hours ago, desoto1939 said:

when you rebuilt the carb and assuming you have a carter B&B carb did you put the two small ballbearings back in the correct locations?  even though the two ball bearings look the same becasue they are small they are two different sizes and if you get them revesed this can cause issues. Make sure you check this out.  Suggest that you get a carboard egg carton and my two or even a weekly pill tray and mark each opening with a a number.

 

As you disassemble the carb put the first part into the number 1 slot and continue inthe same manner until totaly disasembled when following the instruction sheet.  Then when starting to rebuid just start with the last part inthe last holder slot and rebuild this way you know you are getting the parts put back in the correct order.

 

Rich Hartung

Desoto1939@aol.com

Yep, got them in the right place. Ran fine a year or so after the carb rebuild.

[50mech]

23 hours ago, Noah said:

Well shoot. I put in a new distributor condensor and points, new plug wires, again, and the resistor. Now it doesn't show a charge and it's sputtering, opposite of what it was doing. Sputtering starts around 2500 Rpm if I were to guess. I did put a voltmeter on the battery and it was asking around 12.5, when I revved up some it did increase to 12.6, so it is charging, a little, maybe a bad ammeter? although it does show a discharge when I turn in the lights. Now I'm not so certain they're related issues.

At 12.5 12.6 you're not charging , this is just plain battery voltage. Revving and getting a .1 Increase is just increased noise hitting your meter. 13.2 is probably charging 13.5+ is healthy charging.

 

You have a generator that's grounding out. As @soth122003 had brought up previously.

 

It will cause the sputtering at speed.

 

Edited July 19, 2020 by 50mech

[Tooljunkie]

6 minutes ago, 50mech said:

At 12.5 12.6 you're not charging , this is just plain battery voltage. Revving and getting a .1 Increase is just increased noise hitting your meter.

 

You have a generator that's grounding out. As @soth122003 had brought up previously.

 

It will cause the sputtering at speed.

 

This would be easy to test. Disconnect wires on generator. 
run it. Report back. 

[Sniper]

I would measure the output of the generator with the engine running, the OP mentioned that maybe his ammeter is bad.  If so then the generator will never charge the battery.  So if the output at the generator reads correctly but he's still seeing no change at the battery then it's either the wiring between the two or the ammeter that's the issue.

Edited July 19, 2020 by Sniper

[Noah]

MAJOR UPDATE: I did install the points INCORRECTLY. The spring was not installed correctly as Plymouth Adams mentioned. Got it installed correctly and voila! runs perfect and now showing a charge!!! So, I think it may have been bad points and/or condensor originally, and then I replaced the points and didn't install them correctly so the issue persisted.  I just took it for an hour cruise through town and on the highway. Not a single issue, runs strong, charges when it should!!!

 

Until...

I got home and was cleaning up the garage and figured I'd pop the hood to double check make sure everything was tight and right, this is about 5 minutes after the cruise, and the damn generator is smoking. I have a battery disconnect and unscrewed it, it was arcing as I was backing it out. I touched the voltage regulator cover and burned my hand. Something not quite right there. Mind you, brand new generator and voltage regulator. I let it cool for about 30 and hooked the battery back up, no arcing. I started and ran for about 5 minutes and tested the battery. Idling at 12.6-13. Charging at almost 14 volts when revved. So everything seems to be charging correctly, but why the smoke and scalding hot regulator?? 

 

PS. Thank you everyone for the advice and support thus far!! 

Edited July 19, 2020 by Noah

[50mech]

Are you absolutely certain the field and armature wires are not reversed?

If so swap and then re polarize.

 

 

If I'm looking at the regulator internal operation correctly, if the arm and field wires were backward and assuming that no other accessories were on at a time when you disconnected your ignition system by changing the points you could have inadvertently repolarized your generator, making it work but backwards.

Edited July 20, 2020 by 50mech

[Noah]

35 minutes ago, 50mech said:

Are you absolutely certain the field and armature wires are not reversed?

If so swap and then re polarize.

 

 

If I'm looking at the regulator internal operation correctly, if the arm and field wires were backward and assuming that no other accessories were on at a time when you disconnected your ignition system by changing the points you could have inadvertently repolarized your generator, making it work but backwards.

One thing I'm absolutely sure of is that I should never be absolutely sure of anything. 

 

I do believe they are hooked up correct. Larger post on the generator I have is the armature. 

[50mech]

How much charge was the ammeter showing during your cruise?

[Noah]

4 minutes ago, 50mech said:

How much charge was the ammeter showing during your cruise?

I would say 20-30 amps. Bouncing around a bit. 

[50mech]

Wow, way overcharging except for a few minutes in the case of a totally dead  battery. It should drop down to around zero when the battery is full.

 

Id want to check armature and field resistance to ground. 

I'd also be checking body ground.

I would highly suspect the VR sticking closed on the field though.

Mainly because it would make it over charge but also cause that draw with it shut down until disconnected and reconnected.... anything else would still draw when reconnected most likely.

Edited July 20, 2020 by 50mech

[Noah]

On 7/19/2020 at 7:47 PM, 50mech said:

Wow, way overcharging except for a few minutes in the case of a totally dead  battery. It should drop down to around zero when the battery is full.

 

Id want to check armature and field resistance to ground. 

I'd also be checking body ground.

I would highly suspect the VR sticking closed on the field though.

Mainly because it would make it over charge but also cause that draw with it shut down until disconnected and reconnected.... anything else would still draw when reconnected most likely.

Here's what I came up with testing today.

 

Engine off: arm and field points closed, battery points open. 

Engine idle: same. 4.5 V on the armature 

Throttle some: armature points open, battery points closed, field stays closed. Armature volts increase to over 18. 

 

No arcing when disconnecting battery after 5 minute engine run.

 

Resistance to ground

Battery disconnected: arm .3ohm, field 4.2

Battery connected: .3 and 2

Ignition on, engine off. .3 and 2.1

 

Not sure what any of that means. Seems like it's charging way too much @ 18 v.

 

[50mech]

Resistance to ground should be checked on the gen with the wires disconnected . You're basically just checking for shorts. That said, you sort of inadvertently did the basic generator test and it passes.

That's faults your VR in a basic test.

 

There's a good chance this VR is now burnt out.

But before you go through all the VR tests try this;

Run a jumper wire directly from battery ground to the VR case and be sure it has good contact with the body also.

Then see how it operates.

 

If it can't get a good ground through the case then two things are gonna happen. 

1. Parts of it will get ground through a load....like your ignition system.

2. It can't get enough current through that load to properly operate the coils in the VR, so field never opens, arm never closes.... battery overcharges and eventually the cutout sticks closed and tries running the generator as a motor.

 

That would explain the odd correlation to your ignition points.