Carter B&B Carburetor-Starting issues

[cerick305]

I have 1947 P15special deluxe with a Carter B&B carb.  I have issues starting, eventually it starts but with much effort.

It cranks just fine and appear to be getting plenty of fluid.  Once it does get started and warms up, it will stall out (not often).

 

A few additional information:

*when cold and pulling choke all the way out, car will not start what-so ever.  I did look in carb and looks as if the flapper is completely closed when choke pulled.

*Cleaned air cleaner to make sure there wasn’t extra resistance in air flow.  But with cleaner off, I did get a flash of flame under hood,  I quickly stopped turning it over.

*Spark plugs replaced and gap checked.

*New battery and rebuilt starter installed last year

*When accelerating, sometimes engine seems to hesitate before responding.

 

Does anyone think I need to do some sort of adjusting of carb..  Anyone have info on that or any other recommendations?

 

Thanks everyone for this forum, I do ask the masses here for advice often and appreciate all the feed back I receive!

 

Thanks,

 

Chad

 

 

 

[kencombs]

First place I'd go is ignition timing, point gap (and condition).  Followed by compression check and valve adjustment. 

[desoto1939]

Does the Plymouth have the sisson automatic choke?  If it does it this properly adjusted? If you have a sisson choke check the linkage for the choke and the choke butterfly this might be binding.  You said the carb was rebuilt did you you rebuild the carb? Assuming it is a Ball and Ball carb.  Di you put the two inner small ball bearing back into the proper holes.  These are small but they are different in overall size and if you switched them this can also cause problems.

 

When rebuilding a carb suggest that you get several cardboard egg boxes and then number each hole. As you disassemble the carb put each individual part into a separate slot so that when you are putting it back to gether you then can take the appropriate part from the numbered egg hole 

 

What carter B&B carb number are you working on? I might have some information on the rebuilding steps that might help you with you issue.

 

Rich HArtung

desoto1939@aol.com

[Sniper]

Manual chokes, the OP says he pulls it out, are not on/off switches.  You may not need as much choke, try pulling it halfway.

 

But the flash in the carb does concern me.  Sounds like a timing issue, or a bad valve.  I know, I am such an optimist but I do have 13 letters in my last name so you know where my optimism comes in.

[Nick307]

I just did a rebuild on my carter due to the same issue. When I pulled mine apart the step up valve was seized in the open position giving it full fuel all the time. Worth a look at least. As for the bit of flame up, that is most likely a timing issue.

[keithb7]

5 hours ago, cerick305 said:

I have 1947 P15special deluxe with a Carter B&B carb.  I have issues starting, eventually it starts but with much effort.

It cranks just fine and appear to be getting plenty of fluid.  Once it does get started and warms up, it will stall out (not often).

 

A few additional information:

*when cold and pulling choke all the way out, car will not start what-so ever.  I did look in carb and looks as if the flapper is completely closed when choke pulled.

*Cleaned air cleaner to make sure there wasn’t extra resistance in air flow.  But with cleaner off, I did get a flash of flame under hood,  I quickly stopped turning it over.

*Spark plugs replaced and gap checked.

*New battery and rebuilt starter installed last year

*When accelerating, sometimes engine seems to hesitate before responding

 

 

Chad

 

 

 

Chad, when you say it's getting plenty of fluid when cranking, I assume you mean it's getting plenty of fuel? How did you confirm this? Tell us a little more.  

I like to pull my air filter right off. Hold the choke open manually and cycle the throttle a few times while I look down the carb. Not while the engine is being cranked over. Just sitting there. Is the accelerator pump giving a good squirt of gas into the carb venturi? 

 

The flame under the hood as mentioned by Sniper is a clue here too. Could be a couple of things going on at the same time. Have you taken a compression test? How do the cylinders fare? Have you tested your mechanical fuel pump output pressure while the engine is cranking over, while you are trying to start it? What is pressure is it putting out?

[cerick305]

These are all pretty good ideas and will look into them.  However, many have mention a compression issue....  I’ve notice my wipers not working very well and I am aware that they are powered off the engine compression...  Could this be sign I have a compression issue?

[cerick305]

5 hours ago, desoto1939 said:

Does the Plymouth have the sisson automatic choke?  If it does it this properly adjusted? If you have a sisson choke check the linkage for the choke and the choke butterfly this might be binding.  You said the carb was rebuilt did you you rebuild the carb? Assuming it is a Ball and Ball carb.  Di you put the two inner small ball bearing back into the proper holes.  These are small but they are different in overall size and if you switched them this can also cause problems.

 

When rebuilding a carb suggest that you get several cardboard egg boxes and then number each hole. As you disassemble the carb put each individual part into a separate slot so that when you are putting it back to gether you then can take the appropriate part from the numbered egg hole 

 

What carter B&B carb number are you working on? I might have some information on the rebuilding steps that might help you with you issue.

 

Rich HArtung

desoto1939@aol.com

No auto choke and carb was last rebuilt 5 years ago by someone else.  From reading everyone’s responses, I heading forward checking timing.  Thanks 

[cerick305]

So I recheck plug gap and .028 inches as the manual says.  So I’m going to look at timing but have a pretty basic question (and if there is a step by step timing section in this forum please let me know).  

The manual states to put chalk on fan pulley at zero degrees, I’m assuming that is point DC on the attached picture...  Now what degree am I looking for at idle and what degree at rpms?

Timing light connected to plug 1?

 

Also, do I need a timing light for a 6volt system or should my old timing light work properly.

 

 

[cerick305]

7 hours ago, Sniper said:

Manual chokes, the OP says he pulls it out, are not on/off switches.  You may not need as much choke, try pulling it halfway.

 

But the flash in the carb does concern me.  Sounds like a timing issue, or a bad valve.  I know, I am such an optimist but I do have 13 letters in my last name so you know where my optimism comes in.

I also now think my timing is off.  Going to try and fix, but not sure what to do.

[50mech]

Does sound more like an ignition issue to me. Flame could just be loading up. Gotta have a little bit of valve leak but that's pretty common. What's your voltage at coil during cranking? What's your coils resistance? And are we sure plug wires are in the correct firing order?

And I've not experienced a 180 out issue on these motors yet...anyone chime in whether they run like this... because some will... exactly as you describe.

Edited April 27, 2020 by 50mech

[50mech]

Most timing lights will work on 6...can't hurt it by trying. If not you can always power it from a 12 from a separate vehicle or battery...the inductive pickup is all that matters for actually triggering the light.

[Sniper]

Don;t have a write up on the timing but here's one ont eh rest of the tuneup

 

http://www.yourolddad.com/tune-up

 

I ended up having to pull the radiator so I could clean up the timing marks well enough to see them with my timing light. 

[1949 Wraith]

Run some chalk over the timing marks to help them stand out when you are stobing. You know how to loosen the distributor and rotate to adjust timing?

[cerick305]

38 minutes ago, 1949 Wraith said:

Run some chalk over the timing marks to help them stand out when you are stobing. You know how to loosen the distributor and rotate to adjust timing?

Yes, I do know how to loosen distributor and rotate to adjust, but I'm not sure of what numbers I'm suppose to be achieving...

[desoto1939]

according to my flat rate book for Plymouth from 1939-50 the spark timing mark on the dampener is TDC or top dead center  the sparkplug gap should be set at 25 for 1938-48.

 

Yes a 12 volt timing light will give you a good light but remember to switch out the clips you are positive ground on your car.  Time off on number 6 spark plug wire. So the red clip goes to the ground and the negative to power 

 

The original timing was done with number 6 plug.  When looking at you head there is a small bolt just in front of the number 6 plug this was removed and then the timing light and timing rod would be placed inthis hole and then the light would go on when the piston came to the top.

 

Also the points gap is 20

 

I would suggest that you get a service manual for your car because this will answer a lot of your questions.

 

Rich Hartung

desoto1939@aol.com

[cerick305]

14 minutes ago, desoto1939 said:

according to my flat rate book for Plymouth from 1939-50 the spark timing mark on the dampener is TDC or top dead center  the sparkplug gap should be set at 25 for 1938-48.

 

Yes a 12 volt timing light will give you a good light but remember to switch out the clips you are positive ground on your car.  Time off on number 6 spark plug wire. So the red clip goes to the ground and the negative to power 

 

The original timing was done with number 6 plug.  When looking at you head there is a small bolt just in front of the number 6 plug this was removed and then the timing light and timing rod would be placed inthis hole and then the light would go on when the piston came to the top.

 

Also the points gap is 20

 

I would suggest that you get a service manual for your car because this will answer a lot of your questions.

 

Rich Hartung

desoto1939@aol.com

Is the TDC set at idle or a certain RPM?  I've also seen people plug the vacuum line during setting the timing, is this necessary?  Also, thanks for the valuable info...

[desoto1939]

33 minutes ago, cerick305 said:

Is the TDC set at idle or a certain RPM?  I've also seen people plug the vacuum line during setting the timing, is this necessary?  Also, thanks for the valuable info...

TDC is at idle  not necessary to plug the vacuum line.  I always time with #6 plug on my 39 Desoto.

 

Rich

[Sniper]

Let's clarify, at idle and hooked up like stock, there should be no vacuum at the vacuum advance.  So you shouldn't need to plug it.  But on a new to you car, especially with an unknown history it doesn't hurt to verify that initially.

[cerick305]

9 hours ago, desoto1939 said:

according to my flat rate book for Plymouth from 1939-50 the spark timing mark on the dampener is TDC or top dead center  the sparkplug gap should be set at 25 for 1938-48.

 

Yes a 12 volt timing light will give you a good light but remember to switch out the clips you are positive ground on your car.  Time off on number 6 spark plug wire. So the red clip goes to the ground and the negative to power 

 

The original timing was done with number 6 plug.  When looking at you head there is a small bolt just in front of the number 6 plug this was removed and then the timing light and timing rod would be placed inthis hole and then the light would go on when the piston came to the top.

 

Also the points gap is 20

 

I would suggest that you get a service manual for your car because this will answer a lot of your questions.

 

Rich Hartung

desoto1939@aol.com

Before I make such a large adjustment, I do want to make sure I am understanding correctly.  I am to get the center line (top dead center) lined up with the arrow on crank shaft?  See picture, with engine off I turned crank shaft to position I was viewing with timing light so you can see how far off it is... driver side is to left 

[Dozerman51]

The TDC mark must line up with the pointed arrow on the timing case cover. 

[squirebill]

OK, if I'm understanding you correctly, the picture is what you see when the timing light flashes. That being said looks like you are firing about 15 degrees after Top Dead Center. My manual says your P15 should be set to fire right at Top Dead Center.  Adjustment is required.  Since the rotor in the distributor goes in a clockwise direction, rotate the distributor body in the counter-clockwise direction until the timing mark moves under the pointer when the light flashes.

[desoto1939]

correct with the engine running then use the timing light to see where the mark is getting highlighted by the flash from the timing light.  If the timing mark is not lining up with the pointer then you have to adjust the distributor by either advancing or retarding the timing so you are turning clockwise or counterclockwise to get the white mark to be in align with the pointer.

 

Also remember that the car might run smoother even if if is off the mark alittle.  You have to get a fell for the engine and see where is is the smoothest.  When the car was perfectly new then TDC was the mark but as we get older in life we lose some of our own spark and we have to make adjustments in life same for a car as it gets older. As things wear down maybe the point gap can be less than 20 and more to 19/18 because of the cam on the dizzy is worn. All these factors play into the timing of the car.

 

Keep us posted.

 

Rich HArtung

[cerick305]

I had multiple issues going on, first the point gap in distributor was touching.  The little plastic rotating arm in distributor had a piece broken off, I super glued that back on.  Maybe that was making it unstable...  Then after that, the timing was better but pretty far off.  As I got it closer to top dead center it sounded better and better.  Then after a random shock, I decided to only adjust the distributor with the vehicle off, ha..

Now ‘47 start instantly and I’ve never heard her run so soft and stable.  Unreal!

Thank you all very much, you helped a rookie get this vehicle better than I ever had it running.  ‘47 was my papa’s and he gave me it just before he passed.  He drove this up until he was 95 and loved it, and I see why!  

If you guys ever need design/engineering on fire sprinkler work, let me know lol.

Thanks,

Chad

[maok]

37 minutes ago, cerick305 said:

 Then after a random shock, I decided to only adjust the distributor with the vehicle off, ha..

 

 

Well done!!!!  But I can't stop laughing at  the 20,000 volts you got...lol!  Everyone has had that happen.