OD usage - and yes I am not getting my brain around it

[Thomba48]

The current set-up:
OD installed/ usage a George Ash harness simply for simplifying reasons/ the delivered kick-down switch did not seem to work (so I left it away)/ a toggle switch is included.

 

What I do know:

Overdrive cable has to be pulled in/ at around 28 mph I have to get of the gas pedal and the OD should move into OD Second gear/ and so forth.

 

My questions:

• Can I use any replacement kick-down switch or does it have to be a bespoke one for a Plymouth?
• Lacking the kick down switch I only can use the the toggle switch. What is the correct use of it? Obviously I would not activate it when in first. When I am getting closer to 28 I would then switch it on and then go into OD eventually. The switch I would leave on the entire time until when in the end?
• The strange thing is - it does not feel as I am actually moving into second gear OD, I only seem to experiencing a change when in third. Could that be an indication for an issue or simply bad handling on my part?

 

 

thanks/ thom

 

 

[DJ194950]

I would have to see Georges wiring diagram to try to help. Hope he sent one with the trans.

 

There is many possible ways to wire the OD operation. With/without the kick down eliminated one possibility.

 

DJ

[Thomba48]

Here we go ?

[casper50]

Don't know if this will help but just saw it on ebay.   https://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-1950-1956-Mopar-Overdrive-Relay-12V-O-D-Chrysler-Plymouth-Dodge-RAG-4001/312257705168?hash=item48b40274d0:g:qnkAAOSwcMZbj~ux&vxp=mtr

 

[DJ194950]

First- the 3 way switch only takes away the 25-28 mph cut in/out. The yellow wire from the is a ground wire only to the OD relay to determine if is open or closed (OD solenoid on/off).

Second- the OD cable can be in the ON position at any time you want to use the OD, anytime from stopped to 50mph as long as is is not moved unless under a load (accelerating or steady pull). With the ground from the Gov. open (below 28 mph) the overdrive will not engage under any instance. If the 3 way is is the closed position it will engage the OD  at any speed if you let off the gas even for a second. Not something I would recommend. Sure would be easier to talk over the phone tnan my trying to type all this and try to make sense to you. I am very SLOW typist!!

 

I think  in short time I believe I could explain this to you. Not really to complicated when you understand the electrical connections involved.

 

Call me if you wish, I'll PM you my phone #, I'm in California.

 

DJ

[oldasdirt]

19 hours ago, Thomba48 said:

The current set-up:
OD installed/ usage a George Ash harness simply for simplifying reasons/ the delivered kick-down switch did not seem to work (so I left it away)/ a toggle switch is included.

 

What I do know:

Overdrive cable has to be pulled in/ at around 28 mph I have to get of the gas pedal and the OD should move into OD Second gear/ and so forth.

 

My questions:

• Can I use any replacement kick-down switch or does it have to be a bespoke one for a Plymouth?
• Lacking the kick down switch I only can use the the toggle switch. What is the correct use of it? Obviously I would not activate it when in first. When I am getting closer to 28 I would then switch it on and then go into OD eventually. The switch I would leave on the entire time until when in the end?
• The strange thing is - it does not feel as I am actually moving into second gear OD, I only seem to experiencing a change when in third. Could that be an indication for an issue or simply bad handling on my part?

 

 

thanks/ thom

 

 

Well  the toggle switch you will use to kick it out of overdrive. it breaks the circuit.      Which overdrive are you actually using ?  the 1950s r10g1 ?  If so since you seem to be able ot

get it in Overdrive in 3rd you have the cable in the correct position.    Depending on the model of overdrive you have will depend on what speed you need to be going to 

put it into overdrive.  Lets start in 2nd..   You will start off in 1st,  shift to 2nd and for mine when I am going around 35 mph you let off the throttle for a second, that puts it

into overdrive and then put your foot back on the throttle.     It will go into overdrive in 1st but again depending on the overdrive you need to be going a fair speed

then let off the throttle to get it into overdrive.  More than not, I am in overdrive in 2nd or 3rd and as I am slowing down, I shift down so when I come into 1st I am in overdrive.

 

My question is how do you know the kick down switch you got from George Asche doesnt work ?   Im asking because if you have the toggle switch in the 

open position, it will never go into overdrive.  Are you sure that isnt what was happening ?  Id put the kickdown switch back into the wiring harness and make sure

I didnt have the toggle switch open.  If it is really defective I am sure George will send you a replacement.

 

 

 

[Thomba48]

5 minutes ago, oldasdirt said:

Well  the toggle switch you will use to kick it out of overdrive. it breaks the circuit.      Which overdrive are you actually using ?  the 1950s r10g1 ?  If so since you seem to be able ot

get it in Overdrive in 3rd you have the cable in the correct position.    Depending on the model of overdrive you have will depend on what speed you need to be going to 

put it into overdrive.  Lets start in 2nd..   You will start off in 1st,  shift to 2nd and for mine when I am going around 35 mph you let off the throttle for a second, that puts it

into overdrive and then put your foot back on the throttle.     It will go into overdrive in 1st but again depending on the overdrive you need to be going a fair speed

then let off the throttle to get it into overdrive.  More than not, I am in overdrive in 2nd or 3rd and as I am slowing down, I shift down so when I come into 1st I am in overdrive.

 

I didnt have the toggle switch open.  If it is really defective I am sure George will send you a replacement.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 8, 2018 by Thomba48
Wrong setting

[Thomba48]

I will not be able to really respond to your wonderful notes in full depth. But later. What , however, have to make clear immediately: The harness from George did not come with the kick down switch. So if it really is damaged - as I believe it is, but I shall check - he is under no circumstances to be blamed. An important note regarding the reputation of a great man.

[oldasdirt]

Ok Thom -

 

Im a little confused.  Are you saying your got the kickdown switch elsewhere ?  In any case, if your remove the kickdown switch out of the harness,  the toggle

switch becomes a "manual kickdown switch".   The electronic version used in the 1950s r10g1 overdrive on the carb can be removed from the circuit

as long as their is a toggle switch. The toggle switch when opened breaks the circuit and then takes it out of overdrive.  It wont ever go

back into overdrive until the toggle switch is moved into the other position, closing the circuit.

[Ernie Baily]

Hello,  Check out Randy Rundles web site:  www.fifthaveinternetgarage.com   He offers a replacement Kickdown switch,  solenoids, relays, and other items that might be of interest. Also check with George Ashe, he rebuilt my original solenoid at a reduced cost. He checked out my original relay too!  He is a Great guy!

 

Good luck! I love my overdrive on my 48 Plymouth.

 

 

Ernie Baily

[Thomba48]

Thanks to all.

 

For the final round ? - as everything there is I have understood - let us be purely practical. The only question remaining for me is the position of the toggle switch. And its three positions. Left - middle - right.

 

For this final round let us assume that a) I am stupid - not totally true but not completely false either especially when it comes to electrical settings b) the kick down switch will not be installed and obviously c) the OD cable is properly pulled in.

 

So what position should the toggle switch be when I get started under normal circumstances? Left - middle - right?

When I momentarily want to get out of the OD - bearing in mind there is no kick down switch - what would then be the right position of the toggle switch? Left - middle - right?

And where would the toggle switch be moved to if I wanted to get back into OD again after that - this would obviously than be the normal dirving setting.

 

thanks for additional insights. Might sound easy and strange to you, but I can't seem to be able to be getting my head around it.

 

 

thom

 

 

[Greg51T&CWagon]

My r10 equipped truck came to me with a toggle switch. It only has two positions. Why not start by dismounting it from the dash so you can easily get to the back of it and using a multitestor run through the positions and see what you get?  Greg

[kencombs]

57 minutes ago, Thomba48 said:

Thanks to all.

 

For the final round ? - as everything there is I have understood - let us be purely practical. The only question remaining for me is the position of the toggle switch. And its three positions. Left - middle - right.

 

For this final round let us assume that a) I am stupid - not totally true but not completely false either especially when it comes to electrical settings b) the kick down switch will not be installed and obviously c) the OD cable is properly pulled in.

 

So what position should the toggle switch be when I get started under normal circumstances? Left - middle - right?

When I momentarily want to get out of the OD - bearing in mind there is no kick down switch - what would then be the right position of the toggle switch? Left - middle - right?

And where would the toggle switch be moved to if I wanted to get back into OD again after that - this would obviously than be the normal dirving setting.

 

thanks for additional insights. Might sound easy and strange to you, but I can't seem to be able to be getting my head around it.

 

 

thom

 

 

Before anyone can answer that question they will need to know how you actually have it wired.  You posted a diagram, but stated that the kickdown isn't installed.  So we have know way of knowing how it is actually installed.  Also, if you're not using the kickdown, only a toggle, a simple on/of single pole/single throwf is all that's needed.  The single pole/double throw, three terminal switch isn't necessary and only complicates the discussion.

[Merle Coggins]

According to that diagram, the toggle switch would select if you want the overdrive to shift based on governor speed, or manually. In the middle position the lockout switch wouldn't be connected to a ground (earth) path, so the circuit would be incomplete. Switch one way connects the lockout switch to the governor. I assume this position allows the overdrive to shift based on speed. Switch the other way would give a permanent ground (earth) connection for the lockout switch. Would this keep the OD engaged all the time?

 

I've never played with an OD trans to know how it functions electrically, but based on the other comments, and the way the diagram is drawn, it appears to be an "automatic" or "manual" selection of the overdrive.

[Barabbas]

I agree with Merle--one direction engages the OD no matter the speed, the center position disengages the overdrive and the third position the OD is controlled by the governor,   That's how my overdrive operated , using the same wiring diagram as Thom posted.  I did not use the kickdown feature, personally I wanted control the OD manually

[9 foot box]

  When I went to overdrive, George helped me also. I've seen his and about four other diagrams. I don't have a throttle kick down, or the other parts.I have a fused two position longish lever toggle that applies power to the solenoid, the bottom connection,that pulls the pawl out, engaging the overdrive. I didn't like shorting the points or all the work to put a momentary switch on the shift lever knob. I have to flip the toggle off to go from 2nd high to 3rd low, then on again for 3rd over. A tip, you have to get out of overdrive to use reverse. 

[Thomba48]

Thank you

[JOHN EDGE]

Never understood why anyone would need to use these toggle system to operate their overdrive unit. When I first bought my wagon it’s overdrive unit was wired this way and I received a note showing this drawing of this wiring schematic and how this was the George Ashe method. Well I had many other projects to complete on my wagon but after driving and using the overdrive unit I thought this seems very redundant. At the core of this operation is a governor that act as a ground for the relay when you reach operation speed 35/40 mph. Once grounded the relay allows current to apply the solenoid and once you momentarily release throttle pressure you have engagement of the overdrive unit. Unless you have the manual cable in the block position. Works every time. No toggle switches or redundant wiring. I never got the need for the extra hardware. All I do is tip my toe above 35 and I’ve got overdrive. Would love for someone to explain the need for the toggle system

[kencombs]

4 hours ago, JOHN EDGE said:

Never understood why anyone would need to use these toggle system to operate their overdrive unit. When I first bought my wagon it’s overdrive unit was wired this way and I received a note showing this drawing of this wiring schematic and how this was the George Ashe method. Well I had many other projects to complete on my wagon but after driving and using the overdrive unit I thought this seems very redundant. At the core of this operation is a governor that act as a ground for the relay when you reach operation speed 35/40 mph. Once grounded the relay allows current to apply the solenoid and once you momentarily release throttle pressure you have engagement of the overdrive unit. Unless you have the manual cable in the block position. Works every time. No toggle switches or redundant wiring. I never got the need for the extra hardware. All I do is tip my toe above 35 and I’ve got overdrive. Would love for someone to explain the need for the toggle system

I don't have one now, but when I did the feature most used was the ability to shift out of o/d in anticipation of a hill that would require direct drive without 'flooring' the throttle. Or in preparation for an upcoming passing opportunity.   Also driving in traffic in second gear, in/out of OD as speed varied.  Much easier on the leg that 2/3 shift with the clutch.

[James_Douglas]

I had George's wiring in my case and I took it off.  I did not feel the need to have the toggle switch.  Since the Desoto Suburban is so heavy, I always have to kick it out of OD when heading up a hill.  I just floor it to kick it out and then back off the throttle a little and it stays out unless I take my foot completely off the throttle again.

 

As to the switch in the engine bay...I made a bracket, that used one of the drivers side threaded holes in the cylinder head, to mount the switch.  I then made up a linkage arm that had a steel arm to activate the switch.  This was much "cleaner" for me than using it on the carburetor and gave me a good granular adjustment.

[JOHN EDGE]

Guess I’m lucky living in Florida. Not a lot of hills but I have driven the wagon in tenn and the Carolina’s and I understand the thought process 

[hkestes41]

When I put the OD in my 48 coupe, rather than mounting the kickdown switch on the carb, I mounted it to the lower lip of the left side of the dash. There was a hole there already that the switch fit through perfectly. If I wanted to shift out of OD just reached up and pushed the button.  

Edited October 14, 2018 by hkestes41

[DJ194950]

That is what I really love about the R-10 OD setup. Soo many choices to make the operation of it function, you can make it work the way You want! Stock to mild/ wild setups.

 

DJ

[oldasdirt]

On 10/13/2018 at 5:15 AM, JOHN EDGE said:

Never understood why anyone would need to use these toggle system to operate their overdrive unit. When I first bought my wagon it’s overdrive unit was wired this way and I received a note showing this drawing of this wiring schematic and how this was the George Ashe method. Well I had many other projects to complete on my wagon but after driving and using the overdrive unit I thought this seems very redundant. At the core of this operation is a governor that act as a ground for the relay when you reach operation speed 35/40 mph. Once grounded the relay allows current to apply the solenoid and once you momentarily release throttle pressure you have engagement of the overdrive unit. Unless you have the manual cable in the block position. Works every time. No toggle switches or redundant wiring. I never got the need for the extra hardware. All I do is tip my toe above 35 and I’ve got overdrive. Would love for someone to explain the need for the toggle system

The toggle switch is not to put it into overdrive.  Its for when your in overdrive and you want to "kick it down" or remove it out of overdrive on the fly.   If your on the highway in overdrive

and want to pass, if you have a 1950s r10g1 wired originally you need to push the pedal to the floor so that the kickdown switch on the carb kicks it out of overdrive   or if you

have a toggle switch in the wiring, you can flick the toggle switch it takes it over of overdrive without needing to hammer the gas pedal.   About 30 years ago I couldnt find

a kick down switch and ran across George Asche at Chrysler Carlisle.  He showed me his wiring harness and had several versions from factory original to a very modern version for

12 volts with electronic components. When I saw the toggle switch and he explained how it worked that gave me the ability to eliminate the need for a new kickdown switch on the carb.

George gave me his wiring diagram for free and I used a heavy duty toggle switch mounted on my shifter.  Worked  like a charm.  But its had nothing to do with getting it into overdrive its

all about kicking it out of overdrive on the fly.

[DJ194950]

4 hours ago, oldasdirt said:

The toggle switch is not to put it into overdrive.  Its for when your in overdrive and you want to "kick it down" or remove it out of overdrive on the fly.   If your on the highway in overdrive

and want to pass, if you have a 1950s r10g1 wired originally you need to push the pedal to the floor so that the kickdown switch on the carb kicks it out of overdrive   or if you

have a toggle switch in the wiring, you can flick the toggle switch it takes it over of overdrive without needing to hammer the gas pedal.   About 30 years ago I couldnt find

a kick down switch and ran across George Asche at Chrysler Carlisle.  He showed me his wiring harness and had several versions from factory original to a very modern version for

12 volts with electronic components. When I saw the toggle switch and he explained how it worked that gave me the ability to eliminate the need for a new kickdown switch on the carb.

George gave me his wiring diagram for free and I used a heavy duty toggle switch mounted on my shifter.  Worked  like a charm.  But its had nothing to do with getting it into overdrive its

all about kicking it out of overdrive on the fly.

That was one of my points of my post, when you flick the switch you need to let off the gas for a second then back on the gas to accomplish the down shift  to unload the trans. Same to turn it on if your already accelerating to engage the OD.

Love the options  as George A. and others have learned over the years since built.

Just use it properly however wired and these OD's work great!!

 

DJ