next on the list... improve braking

[bluefoxamazone]

Hello friends,

would replacing all wheel cylinders and installing a new master cylinder improve the braking behavior of the car? Is there experience available here with a master brake cylinder combined with somekind of a booster?

I have looked into a transition set to disc brakes but most of the typical US parts (calipers) are not available around here...and I like to keep it somewhat original.

So what would be the first thing to do to improve stopping. The brake liners look good as well as the brake drums.

I am looking forward to a good discussion on this...

take care and greetings from over the pond.

[wayfarer]

Have you looked into the costs associated with a disc brake conversion? Little doubt that freight is horrible for heavy stuff but if the end goal is 

to have the best possible braking then there are few options.

If you have the time then perhaps there is a container headed in your general direction in which the needed parts could hitch a ride.  I have heard

many stories of cars being shipped to Europe that have a trunk full of 'spare parts'....

Perhaps one of the other Europe based forum members knows of an upcoming container.

[jeffsunzeri]

The stock brakes on these vehicles, when in  good condition are very, very good.

To determine that your brakes are in good condition:

1. On a flat, dry road with 4 good tires, all of the same size, tread and condition, get to a speed of about 40 mph.

2. Let off the gas, and apply the brakes forcefully as in a panic stop.

3. If your brakes are in good condition, you will stop in a straight line, and all 4 wheels will have locked up.

4. An examination of the skid marks left should show that the front wheels locked up before the back, and all four wheels/tires should have about even skid marks, if your brakes are in good condition.

5. If your car cannot pass this test, do some repairs.

 

Edited August 23, 2018 by jeffsunzeri
spelling

[Andydodge]

Bluefox.............either you have to ensure the stock brakes are in good condition by rebuilding them OR bite the bullet and installa disc brake kit and be done with it BUT a disc kit will also nessesitate things like master cylinder and possibly rear axle swapping etc, etc...........so you need to decide whether you want an original car with original brakes etc that stops as good as an original car or do you want something like a modern car braking ability..............I installed 4wheel discs 40 yrs ago and it was a shock to the system when I bought the 41 Plymouth yrs ago with its stock brakes and my long term plan was to replace them............andyd 

[Adam H P15 D30]

Are you sure small GM calipers (metric as we call them) aren’t available over there? Almost all midsize GM cars used them in the 80’s-90’s. if you want it to stop better, I’d go with front disc brakes before I sunk a dime into the drums, been there done that!  Only other mod needed after the swap is to remove the check valve from the stock master and you’re good to go...

 

Adam

[Plymouthy Adams]

I would think that in Europe with the larger class BMW and Mercedes and never rule out the Volvo cars as these units are continually beng adapted back to the older European cars and in truth could be very adequate on the 54 and likely could easily be adapted.  You could possibly search for drawing specs and find a rotor/caliper set that would fill the bill.  Majority of modern cars are top hat or flat faced rotors making them easier to work with as you do not have to consider hub and bearing application in the process.  Top hats would be best application as they are very supportive of the older wheel where flat face is set aside for very positive offset wheels.

Edited August 24, 2018 by Plymouthy Adams

[keithb7]

Bluefox what year car are you looking to improve? Just curious. Most old mopar brakes are the same anyway I suppose. 

 

I have spent quite a bit of time and effort attempting to get my brakes in top order. Within reason, cost wise. They work pretty good but still, I am used to better. I live up quite a long steep winding hill. The single master cylinder circuit works but it is in the back of my mind as I creep down the hill in low gear. 

 

In my experience the one issue that I can’t seem to dial in right, is the manual brake shoe adjustment. As the shoes continue to wear they need to be manually adjusted. Concentric. Without the miracle tool its no so easy to get right. Double pumps with the brake pedal get the shoes out closer to the drums and good performance, yet I know it’s not right. I have had my drums off multiple times to adjust. Played with minor adjustments too. They are pretty good, but I know could be better. 

 

In time I’ll likely go with front disc conversion and a dual master cylinder. I’ll probably wait until my current shoes are worn out. Putting $1,000 into old brakes is questionable when you could do the same and upgrade to front disc. 

[wayfarer]

Plymouthy is on to something.  

With the multitude of car makes/models, even in Europe, it is reasonable to think that something, in terms of the rotor, will fit/work.

Brackets to hold a caliper are pretty simple affaits. Non-power assist has been used on many front disc setups with good results.

Obviously, you must have time and space to store the car while you get all of the pieces sourced and installed.

 

[etzmolch]

I do have a AAJ Brake kit using the following parts for front brake:

Rotors, bearing & seals: 76 Dodge Dart

Calipers & pads: 72 Charger

Hoses :76 Monte Carlo

To find this parts here in Europe shouldn't be a problem. 

For caliper bracket I can send a drawing for cutting because didn't installed the disc brake yet. 

 

Edited August 24, 2018 by etzmolch

[bluefoxamazone]

thanks for the good suggestions guys but I think that "re-engineering " the brake system is out of the question. You guys have no idea what our Belgian technical inspection is like. If the inspector notices any changes (and certainly on a safety devices) on the car, even if the braking performance increases by factor 10, you're in trouble...

For this, and this reason only you should try to keep everything as original as possible. We live in a country full of rules and regulations. If I see what is possible in other countries... we can only dream of that...

[Adam H P15 D30]

1 hour ago, keithb7 said:

Bluefox what year car are you looking to improve? Just curious. Most old mopar brakes are the same anyway I suppose. 

 

I have spent quite a bit of time and effort attempting to get my brakes in top order. Within reason, cost wise. They work pretty good but still, I am used to better. I live up quite a long steep winding hill. The single master cylinder circuit works but it is in the back of my mind as I creep down the hill in low gear. 

 

In my experience the one issue that I can’t seem to dial in right, is the manual brake shoe adjustment. As the shoes continue to wear they need to be manually adjusted. Concentric. Without the miracle tool its no so easy to get right. Double pumps with the brake pedal get the shoes out closer to the drums and good performance, yet I know it’s not right. I have had my drums off multiple times to adjust. Played with minor adjustments too. They are pretty good, but I know could be better. 

 

In time I’ll likely go with front disc conversion and a dual master cylinder. I’ll probably wait until my current shoes are worn out. Putting $1,000 into old brakes is questionable when you could do the same and upgrade to front disc. 

Exactly why it's just better in the long run to upgrade to discs.  I went through the exact scenario and discs are cheaper than buying the adjusting tool, much better too.

I have no power assist on my 49, stock master cylinder with the check valve removed, no residual pressure valves and it has been great for years, easy pedal 

[Adam H P15 D30]

3 minutes ago, bluefoxamazone said:

thanks for the good suggestions guys but I think that "re-engineering " the brake system is out of the question. You guys have no idea what our Belgian technical inspection is like. If the inspector notices any changes (and certainly on a safety devices) on the car, even if the braking performance increases by factor 10, you're in trouble...

For this, and this reason only you should try to keep everything as original as possible. We live in a country full of rules and regulations. If I see what is possible in other countries... we can only dream of that...

That sucks...  We have some states here in the US that are similar.  Glad I don't live in one...  

I guess it's time to pull out a stack of money and get the Miller tool so they can be adjusted correctly

[Plymouthy Adams]

just when and how often does the inspector visit your undercarriage and such...it this part of an annual MOT similar to England...if so....yeah, you will need the tech inspector on your side and run the mechanical across his desk prior to any wrenching...answer me this...what if you bought the car from the US with the upgrades in place, what would your inspector to say at that time.  Would he discount the entire setup and prevent you from registering?  

[Jakub]

Plymouthy - that's possible. It's also possible that you would have to pay the same tax as when importing new car to Europe (19-23% tax, depending on country and around 25% of another tax, for cars with engine larger than 2 liters; for antique is 8%).

Isn't it Belgium that, when You have antique car, you pass the MOT only once and forever? That's how it works in Poland.

Also, about shipping heavy and large items from US - get in touch with company that ships cars from the US. For a small fee, they may put Your parts in the trunk of cars they are moving.

What about adjustment, recently I met a guy who was working as a mechanic from early 70s. Lockheed brakes was very common in Eastern Block countries. Noone ever heard about the special tool, even the 50s car mechanic textbooks don't mention existance of that item. He perfectly adjusted brakes in my Volga (almost identical to those in Plymouth) in about one hour.

Edited August 24, 2018 by Jakub

[keithb7]

53 minutes ago, Jakub said:

What about adjustment, recently I met a guy who was working as a mechanic from early 70s. Lockheed brakes was very common in Eastern Block countries. Noone ever heard about the special tool, even the 50s car mechanic textbooks don't mention existance of that item. He perfectly adjusted brakes in my Volga (almost identical to those in Plymouth) in about one hour.

 

Well if I’d been a professional working mechanic since 1970, doing lockheed adjustments without the specIal tool, I would expect  no less of myself. However since I’ve been wrenching on my car part time, as a hobby since 2017, I don’t get the same results.  @Jakub I'm wondering have you personally adjusted these same brakes to perfection?

Edited August 24, 2018 by keithb7

[Jakub]

Yes, once. It took me two days.

After that friend of mine told me about that guy.

[keithb7]

Yes. I understand. So does this answer your question? “What about adjustments?”  

[sser2]

As it was said many times over, original Wagner-Lockheed design is quite efficient WRT stopping power. It easily locks all four wheels when brake is applied hard. The caveat is that brakes must be adjusted and maintained properly, which is difficult to do nowadays because brake shoe arching is a long forgotten art, and old time brake gauges are hard to come by.

 

One addition to original setup that can be recommended is adjustable proportioning valve to fine-tune front/rear braking. It is especially useful with non-original tires.

[Jakub]

It answers. But still, IMO, I'd rather spend one weekend in garage, than buy a one-month-salary tool. I mentioned that, because it seems to me that common opinion about those brakes is "It's impossible to adjust properly without tool". It's possible, but time consuming. That's all.

 

[sser2]

Brake gauge can be improvised, people have done it successfully. Arching machines aren't so. They were a common fixture in every village's garage, but were all scrapped once the dangers of asbestos became known.

[Adam H P15 D30]

Never really gave this much thought before, can a later Bendix backing plate and brakes be adapted?  Probably wouldn’t be noticed by the inspection police and much easier to deal with than the Lockheed brakes. 

[nonstop]

I did it to the rear, but did not try the front since I had already converted to disc. I had to drill 2 holes in the flange per side, buy later model retainers and mount them behind the backing plates, and convert to slip on drums. It wasn’t too hard.

[Plymouthy Adams]

I was browsing one of my other mopar forums....these cars application data date to circa 62 and up through 72 application and the one thread talked of how easy it was to adapt the disc setup from a Porsche giving him 13 inch brakes...now of course this guy we know is braking from 145+ MPH on a short decel lane just ahead of the trap...but the fact he made these work shows that many applications are available to investigate and work with...I would think that investigation some of the larger European SUV style vehicles in addition ot full size sedans may prove to be fruitful

[Ricky Luke]

Hi Bluefox

As other people have mentioned, Chrysler have very good standard brakes - as long as they are in good condition and set up correctly. However, they can catch people out who are used to power assisted disks.

I installed a vacuum brake booster to an all drum Morris Minor when I was a Uni student. I pulled the booster off an old Austin and it really helped. It doesn't solve brake fade when the car is driven hard though. There are a number of companies in the UK (eg Rimmer Bros, Canley Classics) who can supply a new booster. You may need to get different connection pipes made. If you haven't already, replace all the hoses with new ones. 

I fully understand your issues with the registration authorities - a booster is much less conspicuous than a disk brake setup.

 

Cheers

 

Rick

 

[bluefoxamazone]

hello folks...

just came upon this, as I was preparing to fabricate my own device....

 

 

has somebody ever try this to adjust the brake shoes?

looks neat and.... cheap...(sorry affordable...)

 

regards,

 

Franky

 

 

Edited August 28, 2018 by bluefoxamazone