Too far gone?

[Steven Dell Brown]

Finally getting under the the front end and it looks pretty bad. Not sure there is anything left to patch up. Every piece in the front suspension, brakes and frame all look good. Definitely restorable but the cross member itself looks like it may be too far gone. After looking at how the front suspension is built I can see why most would advise keeping it stock other than relocating the upper shock mount and upgrading to disc brakes.

Looks like I may be in the market for a donor car. Would you say this cross member is too far gone to repair and salvage? I plan to keep the 218 in it but we do want to lower it.

 

 

[knuckleharley]

Yup,there ain't no patching that one. Send out some emails to the big junk yards out west that advertise antique car parts and ask them for a good front crossmember. The price shouldn't be high because who else is trying to buy one?

Ask for the sheet metal deflector piece that pushes air to your radiator while you are at it.

[casper50]

I agree. get a different one.

[Worden18]

I bought pieces of a frame from these guys a number of years ago.

http://www.dvap.com

They guaranteed it to have no rust...they weren't kidding.

 

[Plymouthy Adams]

now would be the most opportune time to upgrade by doing a frame clip verse all the work involved in replacing the cross section or maybe finding a complete frame altogether...being the 49, it is the most narrow of the frames of the era.

[knuckleharley]

52 minutes ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

now would be the most opportune time to upgrade by doing a frame clip verse all the work involved in replacing the cross section or maybe finding a complete frame altogether...being the 49, it is the most narrow of the frames of the era.

Not everybody has the skills,knowledge,and the tools to do a frame clip. If you don't have all three,don't even try it.

[Frank Elder]

That is one mess that I would never feel guilty about a MII clip.....are you sure the rest of the frame isn't rotten as well?

[Steven Dell Brown]

51 minutes ago, Frank Elder said:

That is one mess that I would never feel guilty about a MII clip.....are you sure the rest of the frame isn't rotten as well?

 

Amazingly none of the front suspension or brake parts are rusted out (perhaps they were replaced along the way but given the dirt build up on them I doubt it) and the rest of the frame is in good shape. I could be wrong but I suspect the front end of this car sat on the ground at some point for many years. The floor pans are rough too but I've actually seen plenty of others in worse shape.

As for cutting and welding in a subframe/front clip I certainly wouldn't tackle that alone. I know a few guys who have done several that know what they are doing (at least a whole lot more than I do). I do have a mid 90's S10 that's intact and rolling. Motor is shot in it so I picked it up for a few hundred bucks. I could do a full frame swap. No easy, quick or cheap answer I know but I figured as much before we ever got started. This ain't for faint of heart or the broke (that part comes about mid way through the project).

[Plymouthy Adams]

58 minutes ago, knuckleharley said:

Not everybody has the skills,knowledge,and the tools to do a frame clip. If you don't have all three,don't even try it.

it would be equal if not less work than repairing that cross section in my opinion...but yes...the skills, tools time and space they should already be aware of by the fact they asked "IS it too far gone" which to me indicates he has thought about it....

[Plymouthy Adams]

with the addition of other pictures....I would say even if doing the work yourself you will have a major amount of time in just repairing the rust issues alone......I am not one that usually gets scared of rust but I do believe I would be sourcing another car and take the best of both to make one

[Eneto-55]

I found your other thread, where you posted a photo of the car, and it's amazing how nice the car looks, as bad as that front cross member is.  I did see a P15 in a salvage here in Ohio, though, where the upper sheet metal looked just about perfect, but the bottom 6 inches or so was just gone.  I didn't try to get down & look under it, because their whole yard was one big mud puddle, but I imagine the frame was really bad, too.  I commented about it to the guy working the counter, and he said that he sees lots of cars like that around here, said it's from leaving them parked (for years) on some sort of mining leavings - it's been quite a few years already, and I don't recall exactly what it was.

[dpollo]

It looks like your car has been immersed in salt water at some time.  Frames are essentially the same 49 to 52 for the sedans.

[Dodgeb4ya]

Scrap it IMO

[DrDoctor]

   Personally, I agree with Knuckleharley (again!!!). As for a frame clip—I’m not a fan of that for obvious-and-already stated reasons. also, I’ve already expressed my opinion about Mustang II style frontend durability from most companies. However, the Revo IFS setup is tough, if not impossible, to beat. Abit more costly than the others, but you get what you pay for. I used one on a guy’s car a few years ago, and he reports NO problems. If you do decide to got that route—definitely contact them!!!

 

[Plymouthy Adams]

8 hours ago, DrDoctor said:

   Personally, I agree with Knuckleharley (again!!!). As for a frame clip—I’m not a fan of that for obvious-and-already stated reasons. also, I’ve already expressed my opinion about Mustang II style frontend durability from most companies. However, the Revo IFS setup is tough, if not impossible, to beat. Abit more costly than the others, but you get what you pay for. I used one on a guy’s car a few years ago, and he reports NO problems. If you do decide to got that route—definitely contact them!!!

 

 

there is no way to mount the IFS shown without clipping the frame first with their frame stubs.....OR.......by sectioning the factory frame which is a lot more involved...

[Steven Dell Brown]

10 hours ago, DrDoctor said:

   Personally, I agree with Knuckleharley (again!!!). As for a frame clip—I’m not a fan of that for obvious-and-already stated reasons. also, I’ve already expressed my opinion about Mustang II style frontend durability from most companies. However, the Revo IFS setup is tough, if not impossible, to beat. Abit more costly than the others, but you get what you pay for. I used one on a guy’s car a few years ago, and he reports NO problems. If you do decide to got that route—definitely contact them!!!

 

 

I appreciate the input for sure but at $4K+ for the Revo heck no! Looks like a great product but damn. I can do a lot with 4 grand (assuming I had an extra $4K laying around). A lot of other ways I can go and spend a fraction of that on the front end. None of them easy or "cheap" I know. We are weighing all options.

Edited March 15, 2018 by s55brown
Spelling

[Steven Dell Brown]

18 hours ago, Worden18 said:

I bought pieces of a frame from these guys a number of years ago.

http://www.dvap.com

They guaranteed it to have no rust...they weren't kidding.

 

Thanks for the tip. I emailed them yesterday thanks to your post and I'm waiting to see what I hear back.

[Steven Dell Brown]

Well, I'm in search of a donor car and reached out to some junk yards out west thanks to tips from a few guys here. Thanks for that.

In the meanwhile we'll be pulling of everything from from the firewall forward. I have a good friend who's one hell of a fabricator who checked it out and wants a crack at repairing the cross member. Figure it can't hurt since it has to come off anyway if he can't make it happen. The more I research, the more I like the idea of mild modifications to the stock front suspension and brakes rather than going with something all together different (assuming of course we don't find a car in better shape). The plan is to remove the springs and bag it. I want to see it lower but I like the ability to bring it back up when needed without breaking out torches and wrenches again.

We're going to stick with the flatty in it but will do some mild mods to it as well. Dual exhaust dumped out of the passengers side fender just behind the tire, dual or triple carbs, 12V upgrade (didn't plan to do this but with the air ride system it's a necessary "evil") and we're kicking around the idea of a very small turbo. With the addition of the turbo we're not looking for the horsepower gains, just a cool sound and unique addition under the hood. Already got a guy working at the drawing board for this one.

As for the sheet metal, we're going to strip out all of the patches and do a light sand blast then apply a spray on rust inhibitor. After that we're going to lay over the top custom made pans using primed aluminium and leaving the rivets exposed. I work in aviation managing a shop that, among other things, does aircraft restoration and modifications so this can be done in house.

We are going for a mild rat rod so this will give it a cool look for all the repair work. I've attached a few photos of one example of what we do so you can get an idea of the finished look. A lot of work but it'll be cool and strong. 

Thanks again for every ones input. It's certainly helpful with finding out what the options are from those who have already done it.

[knuckleharley]

2 hours ago, s55brown said:

Well, I'm in search of a donor car and reached out to some junk yards out west thanks to tips from a few guys here. Thanks for that.

In the meanwhile we'll be pulling of everything from from the firewall forward. I have a good friend who's one hell of a fabricator who checked it out and wants a crack at repairing the cross member. Figure it can't hurt since it has to come off anyway if he can't make it happen. The more I research, the more I like the idea of mild modifications to the stock front suspension and brakes rather than going with something all together different (assuming of course we don't find a car in better shape). The plan is to remove the springs and bag it. I want to see it lower but I like the ability to bring it back up when needed without breaking out torches and wrenches again.

We're going to stick with the flatty in it but will do some mild mods to it as well. Dual exhaust dumped out of the passengers side fender just behind the tire, dual or triple carbs, 12V upgrade (didn't plan to do this but with the air ride system it's a necessary "evil") and we're kicking around the idea of a very small turbo. With the addition of the turbo we're not looking for the horsepower gains, just a cool sound and unique addition under the hood. Already got a guy working at the drawing board for this one.

As for the sheet metal, we're going to strip out all of the patches and do a light sand blast then apply a spray on rust inhibitor. After that we're going to lay over the top custom made pans using primed aluminium and leaving the rivets exposed. I work in aviation managing a shop that, among other things, does aircraft restoration and modifications so this can be done in house.

We are going for a mild rat rod so this will give it a cool look for all the repair work. I've attached a few photos of one example of what we do so you can get an idea of the finished look. A lot of work but it'll be cool and strong. 

Thanks again for every ones input. It's certainly helpful with finding out what the options are from those who have already done it.

Ok,I can see the actual metal fab isn't going to be a problem for you.

 

Are you also going for the "racing seat and rollbar" look,or going to keep it 6 passenger?

BTW,if you decide to use different bumpers,I'm calling dibs on you old ones!

[Steven Dell Brown]

1 hour ago, knuckleharley said:

Ok,I can see the actual metal fab isn't going to be a problem for you.

 

Are you also going for the "racing seat and rollbar" look,or going to keep it 6 passenger?

BTW,if you decide to use different bumpers,I'm calling dibs on you old ones!

Going to keep it 6 passenger. I've seen a lot of different "custom" seats made for cars, especially rat rods, but I like the big bench seats. Not sure how what we'll cover them with yet. That's a a ways down the road. Right now we've covered them with blue shipping blankets.

As for the bumpers, will probably stick with the ones that are on there. That could change though depending on what we run across down the road.

Stay tuned though, anything is possible as we continue to think out loud on what we'd like to see in the finished product. Just looking to have fun with the build.

I have mad respect for the guys that tackle a full on restoration. We do it with aircraft so I know first hand how tedious it can be, especially to do it right. But for this build, we're not shooting for a restoration but rather a mild custom/rat rod.

[Steven Dell Brown]

20 hours ago, Eneto-55 said:

I found your other thread, where you posted a photo of the car, and it's amazing how nice the car looks, as bad as that front cross member is.  I did see a P15 in a salvage here in Ohio, though, where the upper sheet metal looked just about perfect, but the bottom 6 inches or so was just gone.  I didn't try to get down & look under it, because their whole yard was one big mud puddle, but I imagine the frame was really bad, too.  I commented about it to the guy working the counter, and he said that he sees lots of cars like that around here, said it's from leaving them parked (for years) on some sort of mining leavings - it's been quite a few years already, and I don't recall exactly what it was.

That's interesting and makes sense as to why one might be in this condition. I have no idea where the car spent most of its life so anything is possible. Given the fact that everything else on and including the frame (other than sheet metal) are in pretty good shape my guess is that it sat with flat front tires for a long time at some point with the cross member sitting directly on the ground. Just a guess. I suppose at this point, how it got that way is irrelevant. Don't think I'll waste much time digging into the past to find out. I could spend a lot of hours that would be better spent on something else.

[DrDoctor]

 . 

Edited May 8, 2018 by DrDoctor

[MackTheFinger]

I've generally managed to achieve a reasonable return on investment. IMO plowing $50k into a $10k car isn't a good way to go about it. If you have money that needs a place to hide it may be different. I think that's what brought us million dollar musclecars ...

[Steven Dell Brown]

2 hours ago, DrDoctor said:

Steven,

   Yep, it ain’t cheap, by any definition. But, it’s incredibly well-built. However, I’ll admit, it’s not for everyone. Best regards, and good luck as you proceed on your project.

Thank you for the kind words and well wishes. I will update here as we move forward.

[Steven Dell Brown]

2 hours ago, MackTheFinger said:

I've generally managed to achieve a reasonable return on investment. IMO plowing $50k into a $10k car isn't a good way to go about it. If you have money that needs a place to hide it may be different. I think that's what brought us million dollar musclecars ...

I have no interest in what it's worth to anyone else but me and my son. Not looking to build and sell, I'm looking to enjoy the build and enjoy the drive.

As for million dollar or even 6 figure muscle cars, in my opinion, that's gratuitous, stupid and meant for the likes of any ass clown with more money than they know what to do with. I see it almost daily with aviation where some nimrod who wants to impress the masses can take a mid 60's airplane and dump hundreds of thousands into it and all it proves is that they can sign a check.

If we can't have fun with it then I would haul it to the nearest scrap yard and take my 50 bucks and get lit.

If buying, building and selling is someones thing then I wish them all best of luck and much success. That's not my goal by any means.

I plan to make memories with my son that will be carried on with his son and his son and his son...

 

This is my opinion.