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[Greg51T&CWagon]

So starting to try and unstuck the 251 in my '51 T&C Station wagon. Pulled the radiator to give myself some room. Got everything together to apply some umph to the big nut on the crank pulley. But the little bolts ringing it won't let me get a good seat with the socket.  gotta pull those too i suppose... Should I go ahead and pull the manifolds and valve covers and squirt stuff up in there as well first? I know I'm going to get this rebuilt, (Previous owner knocked some holes in the #1 piston trying to free it.) should I just leave it alone and let the rebuilder deal with it when he breaks it down?  

[Flatie46]

If I was sending it to be rebuilt I would let them deal with it.  

[plymjim]

Talk to your machine shop/rebuilder & ask them what they want removed.

Probably a good idea to deliver it with the flywheel, clutch, balancer (which

will come off when you remove the small bolts on your front pulley) so it

can be balanced properly. Obviously you have the head off already .

Good luck with your project.

[knuckleharley]

1 hour ago, Greg51T&CWagon said:

So starting to try and unstuck the 251 in my '51 T&C Station wagon. Pulled the radiator to give myself some room. Got everything together to apply some umph to the big nut on the crank pulley. But the little bolts ringing it won't let me get a good seat with the socket.  gotta pull those too i suppose... Should I go ahead and pull the manifolds and valve covers and squirt stuff up in there as well first? I know I'm going to get this rebuilt, (Previous owner knocked some holes in the #1 piston trying to free it.) should I just leave it alone and let the rebuilder deal with it when he breaks it down?  

First off,you do NOT want to put a breaker bar with a lever on the crank nut. If you can't get the engine to turn over with all the spark plugs out of it just by using a normal breaker bar and moderate pressure,you need to go back and start over again.

Pull all the plugs and fill all the cylinders with something like Kroil,or a mixture of WD-40 and ATF.   Let it sit for a couple of days to allow any that is going to seep past the rings using gravity to do so.

Pull the side plates so you can see which cylinders have closed valves,and then use a auto parts store "valve hold shut" device that is used to hold valves shut while changing springs on OHV engines. I have made them from old spark plugs by knocking out the center and then tapping it so a air hose fitting will screw into it. Anyhow,the idea is to crank your air compressor output up to it's max,and then attach a hose from the air compressor to each cylinder that has the valves closed,one by one. Sometimes this is enough because just one cylinder being stuck can keep the engine from turning over freely.

Sit back and relax until you hear "blub,blub,blub" noises coming from the base (you did remove the oil filler cap,right?) of the first one you hooked the air line too,and then move on to the next one.

Once you have both bleeding air/allowing the Kroil/whatever to bleed down,pour both full again. No such thing as too much lube when freeing a stuck engine.

Hook up your  battery and "bump" the starter. I do NOT mean twist the key like you are trying to start it,I mean "bump it".  You might be surprised at how often this works.

If it doesn't work,close the rest of the valves and do this to each cylinder until you get them all free and spinning. Do NOT forget to add more Kroil/whatever to each cylinder as you free them up.

Finish off by spinning the engine with the starter for short periods of time until you have pumped up oil pressure on your gauge. Normally,this would be when you would put the spark plugs back in it and start it up,but in your case you would just put them back in and pull the engine. It might even save you some machine shop labor money because an engine that is lubed up and spinning freely is easier to disassemble. At a minimum it will mean fewer parts broken by the machine shop as they force it apart.

[Los_Control]

8 minutes ago, knuckleharley said:

Pull all the plugs and fill all the cylinders with something like Kroil,or a mixture of WD-40 and ATF.

Was thinking about you last Monday. I put atf in these cylinders a year ago, then again in the spring and then summer. Checked it on Monday and still stuck.

This time I used a tricky oil can with a hose and is 50/50 atf/wd40, just easy to snake the hose past the valves and really pump her full. Curious to see how the wd40/atf mix works.

 

 

[knuckleharley]

13 minutes ago, Los_Control said:

Was thinking about you last Monday. I put atf in these cylinders a year ago, then again in the spring and then summer. Checked it on Monday and still stuck.

This time I used a tricky oil can with a hose and is 50/50 atf/wd40, just easy to snake the hose past the valves and really pump her full. Curious to see how the wd40/atf mix works.

 

 

Well,the atf you poured in it last year went somewhere,or you wouldn't be able to pour more in there.

Let it sit a couple of days and then with all the plugs still out hook a 12 volt battery to it and "bump" the starter a few times. Shock works better than brute forces,and sometimes it's the second or third "bump" that gets things spinning.

A word of caution. Once it does free up,spin it over enough that all or most of the excess oil is out of the cylinders before putting plugs back in it. Oil doesn't compress worth a damn. Yeah,it is ALMOST a guarantee that the compression would force the oil past the rings,but "almost" ain't a sure thing. A little oil,no problem. A cylinder full of oil,problem.

 

[Los_Control]

Bumping the starter is excellent idea, where I will go next. I would like to put it in gear and rock it back and forth just pushing on it by hand. 1 ton truck and not rocking as desired ... maybe a stuck wheel.

 

Yeah the bump I compare to a impact wrench, is the rattle or bumping of the driver that really makes them a great tool for removing tight nuts.

It is the impact that breaks the nut loose, then the torque unscrews it.

If that makes sense to anyone that thinks just turning the key and holding the starter on would work.

Got to have some bump if you want to hear the exhaust thump!

[Greg51T&CWagon]

34 minutes ago, knuckleharley said:

First off,you do NOT want to put a breaker bar with a lever on the crank nut. If you can't get the engine to turn over with all the spark plugs out of it just by using a normal breaker bar and moderate pressure,you need to go back and start over again.

Thanks for the responses, I'm just using a 25" breaker. My head is off already, also wd40's rust penetrant seems to be seeping past the rings. With that balancer on I can't even seat the socket enough to get moderate pressure on it. Think I'll give the rebuilder a call and get his take on bothering to try to free it. I don't have a 6 volt for it yet to bump it with the starter. 

[Los_Control]

use a 12 volt, just do not turn any accessories on. Or jump / hotwire from the 12 volt to the starter without hooking it up in the car.

fwiw, I hook a 12 volt up in my pilothouse just to turn the engine over, do not turn on the lights and have no issues. The 12 volt gets the starter turning nicely.

[Greg51T&CWagon]

So using the battery in my truck do i need to disconnect it from the truck or can i use jumper cables? truck turned off.  Positive to the chassis and negative to the battery lead to the starter then bump it with the key? 

I've run out of time to tinker on it today so I'll try again in the morning.  

[Los_Control]

I know others have connected jumper cables.

Myself have only used a 12 volt battery connected to positive ground . The battery does not care which way you connect it.

 

Now jumper cables from a negative ground truck to a positive ground truck, I just as soon stay away from.

Edited December 20, 2017 by Los_Control

[Greg51T&CWagon]

Yeah,

I think i'll just wait till i have a 6 volt. I'd rather not go through the hell of reprogramming my radio on my truck if i disconnect it. 

 

[knuckleharley]

1 hour ago, Los_Control said:

.

 

Yeah the bump I compare to a impact wrench, is the rattle or bumping of the driver that really makes them a great tool for removing tight nuts.

It is the impact that breaks the nut loose, then the torque unscrews it.

If that makes sense to anyone that thinks just turning the key and holding the starter on would work.

Got to have some bump if you want to hear the exhaust thump!

You got it!

[garbagestate 44]

When I was trying to get my 251 unstuck, I found out later that the stuck pistons were the ones that the penetrating oil wouldn't drain past.If I recall, It was #2 and #6.From the bottom, I used a big crows foot on an extension to beat on the piston from the inside after disconnecting it from the crank. When it finally started moving, I put rubber hose on the rod bolts to prevent them from buggering up the crank when I pounded down from the top with a large wooden drift.

[dpollo]

You gave yourself the best advice in your original post.  Beating on things may well cause more problems.  Prying on the ring gear can be effective but it is possible to bend a connecting rod if the angles are just right (or wrong).   Filling the block with hot water   really hot water  may gain you some ground too.

Your machine shop maybe would hot tank the entire assembly to free things up.    Disassembling the engine  yourself will not  save much especially if there is the risk of bending something or even cracking a cylinder wall.  You will want to remove the bell housing and fluid drive unit before the trip to the machine shop.

Since the engine cannot be turned, you will have to partially  drive out the dowel pins at the back of the block so the bell housing can be removed giving you access to the bolts on the fluid drive unit. If this cannot be done then the crankshaft and fluid drive can be lifted from the block after all the bearing caps have been removed.  Mark #2 and#3 main caps as they are easily mixed up.

[Dodgeb4ya]

Some engines are stuck forever and ever. No amount of kroil,PB Blaster, home made, or hydraulic force will free some projects up........

Be glad one of these engines are not the engine you are working on!

[plymouthcranbrook]

47 minutes ago, Dodgeb4ya said:

Some engines are stuck forever and ever. No amount of kroil,PB Blaster, home made, or hydraulic force will free some projects up........

Be glad one of these engines are not the engine you are working on!

Certainly ready to be used as Boat anchors. Already on the water.

[dpollo]

Shades of Tulsa's Miss Belvedere , the buried Plymouth !

[Greg51T&CWagon]

So far I've had good luck with long stored engines. My 327 in my 59 chevy truck had been sittng for 21 years in a damp garage in Tx. Put a kit in the carb, squirted some oil in the cylinders slowly cranked it by hand etc. She started up on the first try. idled smooth and all. The other was a 51 Willys wagon. It had been stored since '51. Found it in an estate in Delaware. owned by a crooked police chief who had a barn full of cars. It had been put in a ditch with only 4500 on the clock. We discovered the rear axle had never been tightened down enough onto the springs. so when you let off on the gas etc it would shunt. He had stored the engine military style. oil filled cylinders. oily wax paper around the carb and distributor etc. a little prep and it started right up. 

[garbagestate 44]

Yeah, That's how those small block chevy engines are. I ignored one for about 5 years, dumped gas down the carb and it fired right up.About a gallon of water puked out the tailpipe when it started though.

[packratc]

My favorite mix for stuck pistons is half transmission fluid and half acetone.  

[palmersparts]

half atf  and half acetone?  as in acetone you get from the paint and body store?    how long do you leave it in??       ive used plain old dot 3 brake fluid down the plug holes on stuck tractor engines with decent results...