engine swap upgrade

[bergy]

 have the chance to buy an early firepower hemi. Its in a friends 39 ford,runs great, I think its a 331. I have a 53 B4 truck. Now would an engine upgrade ruin my truck or be a period upgrade that would not harm the value?THe engine was original in a 54 Desota. It has a 3 speed La Salle treans with it. Ive already put a 99 jeep 3:55 rear.                                          thanks in advance                                                                                                                                                                              

[Los_Control]

sell the Hemi and buy 2 trucks with the profits.

[Plymouthy Adams]

ruin the value, no more than the rear end change already has as far as originality goes.  if it makes  you smile...then go the mile...

[johnsartain]

Depends on the buyer. If the buyer is looking for a restoration, then yes they will offer less or turn their nose up and walk away. If the buyer is looking for a resto-mod and your modification has improved upon the factory specs, then you may have increased its value. If you're keeping it for yourself or want a show stopper. Who cares about value. If you have the original parts to the truck, hold on to them and keep them in good shape. For a restoration to have good value, attention to detail is your greatest concern, If you use modern fasteners in place of the original fasteners, that in itself can decrease the value tremendously. If you use reproduction parts, that will take away from the value.

Even if you do a complete detailed restoration, you still have to find a buyer to pay your price. I saw an ebay ad looking to get $50,000 for A 1949 Model B in the Ebay, Craigslist and External Site Referrals  P15-D24 forum. This is the most I have ever seen someone value a Pilothouse Truck for I hope he get it as it sets the bar higher for value of our trucks but truth to be told, he still likes a lot being able to call it a restoration.

[59bisquik]

In my opinion, it would be a cool period upgrade and would be worth more to me. Matter of fact, I am doing almost the same thing.

But as all of the previous guys have posted, it depends on your vision and other buyers if you planned on selling it.

Many want it bone stock. Many want it period correct with parts available in those days (vintage engine/tranny swaps) which was the original hot rodding. Lastly and least valuable in MY opinion is modern engines and frames. 

[bergy]

thank you all for the excellent responses.

[NiftyFifty]

I don’t agree at all, most people looking to get into the game now want upgrades, better braking and steering and more reliable power train, the customer base of people want all period correct in these Trucks fades a little more every year.  If it’s nostalgia then you likely had or was in one when you were young...that part is changing as those generations are now to the age of selling, not buying.

 

Buy the engine, do the swap if it’s what YOU want...if you build the truck for the next guy, then why build it at all, find a project you want, and make it your own, or you’re  likely to never really enjoy it.

[Plymouthy Adams]

it is a known fact that a person buying an older car that wants the modern features integrated into it will pay for such integration while on the other hand the guy looking for an original example of the vehicle when new will ALSO pay for the originality of the vehicle.  It is the gray areas in between and signs of less than professional application of either that will create a disturbance in the buying arena...both application can often be mutually priced based solely on level of finish.

[Mike36]

'54 Desoto was 276 cubic inch, not 331. The 331 was a Chrysler engine.

[48Dodger]

The guys who are building period correct vehicles are harder to spot because they buy small parts and build each section up little by little.

A guy like me who throws in a race motor and graphs in a later model front end or whatnot is hard to miss. I love both worlds, that's why I save

every part. I do that because its part of the hobby to me, share a lot, live and let live etc etc. 

But if Jim Shepard lines up against me on the way to the store.....with his perfectly build L6 and shiny paint.....I'll eat him alive with my race prepped V8....

my racing googles and long white scarf ......yah, we'll see who gets to the soda shop first!   

In the 10 years of Pilothouse Trucks shows I've put on.....There are way more factory L6 engines showing up than upgraded or modified engines.

48D

 

[Plymouthy Adams]

1 hour ago, 48Dodger said:

There are way more factory L6 engines showing up than upgraded or modified engines.

48D

 

CAN OF WORMS.....lets open it up or at minimum kick the contents a bit...its not just engines that make the vehicle and define its category.  People are very funny when they say they have an original car but yet when you look close, the changes start jumping every which way like popping corn with the lid off the pot.  Small things, added gauges, tachometer, power this and that, stereo etc..paint instead of wood grain, wrong interior much less wrong fabric.   Then you look and see things like the brakes are now modern, shocks relocated, maybe upgraded steering and worse case scenario, brand x engine.  And, while the engine may be the flathead inline six it has been changed to such a degree it can no longer fit stock requirement if its very life depended on it, dual carbs, dual exhaust, most obvious distributor upgrade, alternator hanging off the side, aluminum radiator long before we start looking at aftermarket finned heads, valve chamber covers beehive this and that.  Not a thing wrong with anything I have pointed out so far except to say these vehicles fit the gray area but yet the owners are calling them restored....poppycock, they perpetuating a lie, restored they are not, they are modified and mostly for safety or economy, some for show and some for go.  Even if not modified for performance they would still best be referred to as a personalized vehicle (term I use to refer to my upgraded cars).  These changes suited their needs or build taste or at least tickled their fancy if they bought them in this condition or worse than that, they bought it after being told by a guy in the shadows it was all stock.  There is room for all of them, well maybe for all but those that went brand X engine or downright ratrod.....just, call them by the right name.  

And Tim be careful who you race to the candy store, they may win, they may have been talking about the store in the opposite direction of your burnt rubber marks and opening lights in the distance.  A race begins with GO...but your reflexes have you smoking tires as the guy finishes the sentence with, "to the corner and make a right".  Again, properly define the parameters....  

[ggdad1951]

1 hour ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

CAN OF WORMS.....lets open it up or at minimum kick the contents a bit...its not just engines that make the vehicle and define its category.  People are very funny when they say they have an original car but yet when you look close, the changes start jumping every which way like popping corn with the lid off the pot.  Small things, added gauges, tachometer, power this and that, stereo etc..paint instead of wood grain, wrong interior much less wrong fabric.   Then you look and see things like the brakes are now modern, shocks relocated, maybe upgraded steering and worse case scenario, brand x engine.  And, while the engine may be the flathead inline six it has been changed to such a degree it can no longer fit stock requirement if its very life depended on it, dual carbs, dual exhaust, most obvious distributor upgrade, alternator hanging off the side, aluminum radiator long before we start looking at aftermarket finned heads, valve chamber covers beehive this and that.  Not a thing wrong with anything I have pointed out so far except to say these vehicles fit the gray area but yet the owners are calling them restored....poppycock, they perpetuating a lie, restored they are not, they are modified and mostly for safety or economy, some for show and some for go.  Even if not modified for performance they would still best be referred to as a personalized vehicle (term I use to refer to my upgraded cars).  These changes suited their needs or build taste or at least tickled their fancy if they bought them in this condition or worse than that, they bought it after being told by a guy in the shadows it was all stock.  There is room for all of them, well maybe for all but those that went brand X engine or downright ratrod.....just, call them by the right name.  

And Tim be careful who you race to the candy store, they may win, they may have been talking about the store in the opposite direction of your burnt rubber marks and opening lights in the distance.  A race begins with GO...but your reflexes have you smoking tires as the guy finishes the sentence with, "to the corner and make a right".  Again, properly define the parameters....  

so with an added tach and radials is FEF a restoration?

[Plymouthy Adams]

lose the tach and tires if  you want restoration status...BUT...if it helps, you finishing closer to the mark than many others.....I don't have a tach and I have the period correct bias WWW's but I still do not call it restored, carpet installed, better paint than factory....

[wayfarer]

2 hours ago, ggdad1951 said:

"personalized vehicle"

...Excellent way to label alot of less-than-hot... rods,  or trucks.

 

To the OP, check out Dan Babbs' truck with the Hemi install. Very stock looking and very nicely done.

[ggdad1951]

3 hours ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

lose the tach and tires if  you want restoration status...BUT...if it helps, you finishing closer to the mark than many others.....I don't have a tach and I have the period correct bias WWW's but I still do not call it restored, carpet installed, better paint than factory....

To that point there are no real restorations out there.  ALL paint is now better than factory from back then.  Upholstery, floor covering material (carpet or floor mats) and the like are all superior now and/or are likely not a 100% dead on replacement of things that are not extant in the universe anymore.   I think you are looking a bit to tight on things IMHO.  

[Los_Control]

I would not really qualify as a restoration type of guy, I think modern brakes, radial tires, wider steel wheels are all a upgrade,  would actually improve the value.

Also a rear end gear ratio for modern highway driving. 12 volt wiring, electric wipers, seat belts .... all would not hurt the value in my opinion.

Personally I would be satisfied with factory 6 and floor shift 3 speed.

Motors I would consider using, a chevy 283, ford Y-block, chebby six, dodge slant 6, Something that would be period correct. No clue what would happen to value at that point, but would be the smiles per mile am looking for.

I would not add Hemi to that list, simply would bother me to much driving it. They getting to rare, cost to much ..... my smile per mile is going way down.

Maybe in a model A pickup I would use the Hemi, but actually picked out a 1956 Packard 352 for that job, most sexy engine ever built. I just dont see the model A as ever being a daily driver, while the pilothouse will be my only driver ... unless my wife wants to run me around in her van 

 

[ssnowden]

On 12/10/2017 at 9:30 AM, johnsartain said:

Depends on the buyer. If the buyer is looking for a restoration, then yes they will offer less or turn their nose up and walk away. If the buyer is looking for a resto-mod and your modification has improved upon the factory specs, then you may have increased its value. If you're keeping it for yourself or want a show stopper. Who cares about value. If you have the original parts to the truck, hold on to them and keep them in good shape. For a restoration to have good value, attention to detail is your greatest concern, If you use modern fasteners in place of the original fasteners, that in itself can decrease the value tremendously. If you use reproduction parts, that will take away from the value.

Even if you do a complete detailed restoration, you still have to find a buyer to pay your price. I saw an ebay ad looking to get $50,000 for A 1949 Model B in the Ebay, Craigslist and External Site Referrals  P15-D24 forum. This is the most I have ever seen someone value a Pilothouse Truck for I hope he get it as it sets the bar higher for value of our trucks but truth to be told, he still likes a lot being able to call it a restoration.

I think we all can agree that we hope Pilothouse trucks fetching $50K becomes the norm.  

[NiftyFifty]

8 hours ago, ggdad1951 said:

To that point there are no real restorations out there.  ALL paint is now better than factory from back then.  Upholstery, floor covering material (carpet or floor mats) and the like are all superior now and/or are likely not a 100% dead on replacement of things that are not extant in the universe anymore.   I think you are looking a bit to tight on things IMHO.  

I think we need to discuss my paint job and choice...it was not better then the factory paint, unless at the factory it was dry spraying like I had my shop at 120 degrees, and they sanded everything 3 times....hence my warning to avoid TCP global paint on the solid, non thinning colours

[johnsartain]

1 hour ago, 4mula-dlx said:

I think we need to discuss my paint job and choice...it was not better then the factory paint, unless at the factory it was dry spraying like I had my shop at 120 degrees, and they sanded everything 3 times....hence my warning to avoid TCP global paint on the solid, non thinning colours

I think the 120 degrees was the main problem, I experienced the same. Whatever came over me to paint, medium reducer, my truck in mid August in Arizona. I know! I had the fever to get it on the road and drive it. It's all good though. Nothing a sanding and clear coat won't take care of. 

[59bisquik]

8 hours ago, Los_Control said:

1956 Packard 352 for that job, most sexy engine ever built

When I hear Brand X, I automatically think SBC or equivalent and am automatically not interested. However, in agreeing with Los Control, I think in the nostalgia cool category there would be some other cool vintage engines that would make a great upgrade from the L6 and look fantastic doing it. Obviously a Hemi from Dodge, Chrysler or Desoto would be my first choice. But how about a Buick Nailhead or early Cadillac dressed out finned aluminum goodies? Maybe a J2 Olds Rocket or Thunderbird V8 complete with factory supercharger ?

Edited December 12, 2017 by 59bisquik

[NiftyFifty]

8 hours ago, johnsartain said:

I think the 120 degrees was the main problem, I experienced the same. Whatever came over me to paint, medium reducer, my truck in mid August in Arizona. I know! I had the fever to get it on the road and drive it. It's all good though. Nothing a sanding and clear coat won't take care of. 

My shop was maybe 70 deg the day I painted with this stuff....it was the fact they sell it with no thinning agent and don't recommend thinning it that made it garbage too me....I thinned the next coats on the other panels with some more success, but once it dried, it was just about as bad as the first attempt on the cab.  I used their hardner based on my temps...I think it's just a poor quality paint.

[Plymouthy Adams]

8 hours ago, 4mula-dlx said:

My shop was maybe 70 deg the day I painted with this stuff....it was the fact they sell it with no thinning agent and don't recommend thinning it that made it garbage too me....I thinned the next coats on the other panels with some more success, but once it dried, it was just about as bad as the first attempt on the cab.  I used their hardner based on my temps...I think it's just a poor quality paint.  

when it come to catalyzing paint, it is not based on temperature as it is in correct ratio by volume.  The grade reducer you use will be the real variable in relationship to paint and temperature.  Thin to viscosity for your tip and style gun you are using.....shoot a test patch....I like to tape a piece of masking paper to the wall just for this reason.

 

[NiftyFifty]

That was the issue, there was no supposed to be no thinning of this paint, mix procedure was just paint and hardening agent, the hardner was available in different temperature ranges, which I followed, but it literally was drying the second it left the tip and I adjusted and test patterned my butt off, without and different results.  My friend who was a painter for a dealership and now a custom hotrod builder did my re-paint with the same results...he just ended up painting it so thick it was running, to keep the dry spray down.

 

my previous tremclade job was almost better 

[Plymouthy Adams]

wow...that sure sounds bad.....yes most all paints are moving toward a zero thin and if thinning is recommended, it is by such a ridiculous small amount.....I view all thinning guidelines as a best case ideal scenario which does not seem to exist outside the manufactures environment....My favorite paint was a thinning base mix, was 8 parts paint, 4 parts reducer and 1 part hardener...now it is advertised as zero thinning....balderdash is all I have to say.  I feel your pain...never any fun when things go awry.  we all been there....

[Shovelhead Dave]

Desoto is the least desireable hemi to use, all by itself when it comes to aftermarket anything. The only thing interchangeable is the incoming air.

Desoto hemis were as good as Dodge and Chrysler but are still orphans. Unless you are willing to spend BIG$ you will have way less performance

than you would with a later LA engine. Visually very cool.