Timing to retarded or not.

[bambamshere]

This weekend I tried to time my 251. I got it down to 2 degrees at 450 rpm but it is fully retarded and at about 1400 rpm it is running at 12 degrees fully retarded. 

I was wondering if some might think that it was either taken out at somepoint and not put back in properly or maybe the timing chain had slipped a couple notches over the years. 

We were thinking befire we took the distributor out and turned it. If we could move the wires over by one. 

What do you all think. 

[NiftyFifty]

Can't move the wires, you won't have enough movement then the other way if you do that...#1 should be at about 7 o'clock on the dizzy if it's right.  Are you also adjusting the bottom bolt?  There should be the top one and one u dear the the distributor to give you more movement.

[P15-D24]

Also make sure your vac advance is plugged and the centrifigal advance is working correctly and not sticking. 

[bambamshere]

I don't have vacuum advance on my distributor. The bolt I am moving is the on one the block. I didn't know there was 2 bolts. 

[P15-D24]

First off did your static time it to start?  If you want to do this right... Set the engine up at top dead center with # 1 in firing position. Pull the front valve cover and verify both valves are closed. Their should be a 12 or 14 degree marks on the vibration damper which will correspond to when the exhaust valve starts to open. If it is spot on your know your timing chain is fine.

Next, go back to to #1 TDC in firing position. Your rotor should be pointing at 7 o'clock. If not your oil pump in not indexed correctly, as the oil pump drives the distributor shaft. The oil pump will need to be removed and re-installed. Usually they are off one tooth.   As I mentioned earlier make sure your centrifical advance is working correctly. It need to be free to expand and have 2 springs on it. 

You need to make sure all the mechanical elements are indexed correctly, timing chain, oil pump and distributor shaft first. Their is a second bolt on the bottom of the distributor plate but if everything is indexed right you should never have to adjust it.  

[Radarsonwheels]

On 7/26/2017 at 0:33 AM, bambamshere said:

I don't have vacuum advance on my distributor. The bolt I am moving is the on one the block. I didn't know there was 2 bolts. 

I have been through this on the slant sixes- I didn't know the old flatheads had the same system? Mine has a langdon's hei on it now that my buddy put on when he owned the truck and when I had it before that it was close enough that I just fine tuned.

My experience with this is on the 70's dodge inline 6s. The small blocks have a flathead screwdriver type distributor drive so it's either right or 180° out, so the straight 6's distributor drive was a head scratcher at first. Hopefully it is a similar process on the flatty.

When installing the distributors I try to get the rotor aimed at the proper tower and still have enough adjustment to twist in my setting. The problem is I had to remove the distributor to access the slotted hold down plate. If you work from the bottom of the distributor you'll see the plate itself can be clocked around the distributor.

On the slant6 the distributor gear is helical and twists the rotor as it slides home so there is a lot of messing around trying to aim it at the proper tower to get a baseline before final setting and tuning. It is sometimes possible to get where you need to be by moving over a tooth, if not then you have to re-clock the hold down plate to the distributor body.

My solution was to get the underneath bolt snug but not tight so the plate could still be clocked to the distributor while installed. Then it can be removed and would not easily move before you get the plate fully torqued to the distributor. If you got it right then it will be good enough to start up and have plenty of adjustment using just the bolt into the block.

repeated disclaimer: this is based on experience with later mopar- I hope it helps!

radar

Edited July 27, 2017 by Radarsonwheels

[Don Coatney]

On 7/26/2017 at 0:33 AM, bambamshere said:

I don't have vacuum advance on my distributor. The bolt I am moving is the on one the block. I didn't know there was 2 bolts. 

[bambamshere]

Sorry I didn't het back to anyone. I have been gone for a few days to family farm. 

Anyways I tried today to start my truck and it wont go. Turns over and all but wont start. I'm guessing when we did the timing that it is to retarded. It was running fine though. I had left it for a week. 

Plus I have decided to put a electronic ignition into the truck. Found the one I need on Amazon for 44$ it was 179.99 last week. But I bought it. 

Guess next is to get it started and find a dimmer switch. I have read that a 1956 Ford 150, 250 will fit and it is cheaper then a 1956 Dodge one. 

[John-T-53]

I can't imagine finding the correct electronic ignition on Amazon. With 6 V + ground you have to order the exact one that will work, I had to call Pertronix and have them tell me the correct model number (after they had a team huddle)  before I ordered it directly from them.

Also I wouldn't recommend installing Ford parts on you MoPar; a dimmer switch ain't that expensive...who knows how the Ford switch works and if even 6 volts...

http://www.robertsmotorparts.com/store/dimmer-switch-dodge-truck-plymouth-truck-fargo-truck-chrysler-dodge-desoto-plymouth-1936-1970-1-1

[Don Coatney]

3 hours ago, bambamshere said:

Plus I have decided to put a electronic ignition into the truck.

 

If your engine will not run now why do you think installing electronic ignition will fix the problem. Suggest you first fix the problem and then upgrade the ignition system.

[bambamshere]

I'm not changing the ignition because it wont start. It has started now just had to advance it a bit. 

 

[bambamshere]

Ok so I was wondering if you have to take the distributor apart to get to the bolt on bottom? I noticed the other day when I got it started that the distributor was shaking a bit and want to no if the bolt on the bottom my be loose. May as well do it now. 

[P15-D24]

Just remove the bolt that holds it to the block and pull it out.

Before you do that make sure the engine is set a TDC for #1with the rotor pointing at 7:00

Then turn it over you you will see the bolt on the bottom of the plate. 

[Young Ed]

1 hour ago, bambamshere said:

Ok so I was wondering if you have to take the distributor apart to get to the bolt on bottom? I noticed the other day when I got it started that the distributor was shaking a bit and want to no if the bolt on the bottom my be loose. May as well do it now. 

You should be able to feel it under there and get a wrench on it. 

[bambamshere]

Oh ok thank you for your help. 

[Fernando Mendes]

2 hours ago, P15-D24 said:

Just remove the bolt that holds it to the block and pull it out.

Before you do that make sure the engine is set a TDC for #1with the rotor pointing at 7:00

Then turn it over you you will see the bolt on the bottom of the plate. 

If my rotor is pointing at 4:00 what have I to do with my oil pump shaft?Turn my oil pump shaft ?? teeth in the counterclockwise direction(?).

[bambamshere]

On 01/08/2017 at 9:24 PM, John-T-53 said:

I can't imagine finding the correct electronic ignition on Amazon. With 6 V + ground you have to order the exact one that will work, I had to call Pertronix and have them tell me the correct model number (after they had a team huddle)  before I ordered it directly from them.

Also I wouldn't recommend installing Ford parts on you MoPar; a dimmer switch ain't that expensive...who knows how the Ford switch works and if even 6 volts...

http://www.robertsmotorparts.com/store/dimmer-switch-dodge-truck-plymouth-truck-fargo-truck-chrysler-dodge-desoto-plymouth-1936-1970-1-1

Ok so I ordered a electronic ignition from Amazon but I did a lot of research. I called Petronix and asked which one I needed. Then I did some more research and was on Amazon one day and thought let's see if they have it and sure enough they did. 

For the dimmer switch the Ford 1 after doing research again found out that because I am 12 volt not 6 volt that it was a good fit. No drilling holes and if you look at them. They also fit Gm and Ford and Mopar/Fargo. Installed yesterday and works perfectly. 

Not sure why people think you need to look at only Mopar stuff when the other 2 had basically the same stuff and is cheaper. I have now found the dimmer switch and my radiator hoses. Dimmer switch from Ford and my radiator hoses from Gm. They don't have Gm or Ford on them. 

[Radarsonwheels]

I agree. It must be the case that some parts were definitely specified for a specific vehicle and I'm sure that if you call dana or spicer and order eighteen thousand rear axles they will build them to whatever length and ring gear diameter you want. GE probably sold a kabillion 7" headlights to the big 3. Mustangs and barracudas had kelsey hayes four pot brakes.

Some stuff definitely adds to the personality of operating a vehicle- mopar engines and transmissions are not negotiable for me but my 73 swinger has fiat spyder buckets in it and they look good. For other people they need to see the M on each bolt head. I wish I had that kind of time and money!

Throw up some pictures and then people that read this can be sickened by actual mopar blasphemy instead of the idea of it. Or even maybe say hey that looks great!

Rdr

 

[bambamshere]

Anyone after installing one of these Petronix ignitions get a back a popping through the carb. I thinking that's it's probably just a timing problem. 

What do you all think. I was playing with that bolt under distributor this weekend also. Truck is running and driving but it is also stalling and popping through carb. 

Bought timing light kit with dwell meter and compression tester and vacuum pressure gauge this weekend for 30$. Found at garage sale this weekend. 

[NiftyFifty]

Avoid driving or running it much with that popping, a buddy just had a 65 Ford decided to try and BBQ itself because it backfired through the carb and ignited some oil on the manifold...sadly he had the air cleaner off jut to move it across the shop and that's all it took.

 

[bambamshere]

Well I'm going to have to do something with it to get it going. I noticed that the more I moved distributor back to where it was the popping was less. Only problem with that is the top dead center is no longer at 7 o'clock and now it is around 6 o'clock not sure why. 

[Merle Coggins]

4 hours ago, bambamshere said:

Well I'm going to have to do something with it to get it going. I noticed that the more I moved distributor back to where it was the popping was less. Only problem with that is the top dead center is no longer at 7 o'clock and now it is around 6 o'clock not sure why. 

It's quite possible that someone put the oil pump in without indexing it properly. Don't get hung up on the 7-o'clock position thing. Hook up your "new" timing light and see where it's at. That's the only way to truly know what's going on.

[NiftyFifty]

Could be out a tooth so to say and still run if the oil pump wasn't right, as to why it's not at the typical 7:00.  Did you ever adjust that bottom distb bolt?

[bambamshere]

1 minute ago, 4mula-dlx said:

Could be out a tooth so to say and still run if the oil pump wasn't right, as to why it's not at the typical 7:00.  Did you ever adjust that bottom distb bolt?

Yes I adjusted bottom bolt. It was all the way over to one side. I took it and had to move it all the way ove to the other side to put it at 7 oclock. Then I started it and it started popping out of the carb. So I left the bolt on the bottom a bit loose and started turning till it ran a bit better. I may need to loosen it off and move it a bit more. It idles real nice. It when you bring rpms up that it starts popping. 

[Don Coatney]

Adjusting the distributor timing with the slots on the bottom of the distributor does not change top dead center. Top dead center occurs when the number one and the number six pistons are at the uppermost travel. IF the oil pump was indexed per the book the rotor should point to 7:00 or 1:00 o-clock. IF the oil pump was not indexed per the book then the rotor could be pointing anywhere when the engine is at top dead center. When your pointer on the timing cover indicates the engine is at TDC by lining up with the marks on the engine pulley where is your rotor pointing?