Mikefaster Posted May 25, 2017 Report Posted May 25, 2017 Newbie here... Didn't like the setups out there... Guy at ECI pretty much lied when he said a dual 1" master won't stop my car unless I buy their front brake conversion... If the original master is a 1" bore, or even 1 1/8" for that matter, if I have TWO 1 INCH pistons, it will work just fine. I've done 3 dual master conversions on my other cars as well as for friends and the same principles apply, it's just getting the darn thing setup properly... I like the lowered master of ECI but it changes ratio from 8:1 to 5:1... Granted less pedal effort but less travel. The other setups have with a booster really seem "too busy" and would require more floorpan modifications than I'd like. I'M NOT A METAL FABRICATOR... My brackets are pretty ugly... More pictures soon... One thing I wanna point out is that ALL of the "brake conversions" are NOT seamless... Whether you have to modify the floor, crossmember, hack off the original bracket, installing Chinese aftermarket pedals, and/or varied ratios, it's NOT easy... Why not make it easy and use a little common sense? As a mechanic, a LONG time ago, I was taught: "The guy who designed your car, know more about cars than you and me put together, so don't **** with his ideas too much or he'll bite you in the ass..." For the most part, even today, this is true. EVERYTHING we modify or "hot rod", tends to have SOME kind of consequences... Why pay $400 or more for consequences? Make your own with less material than the think and you'll have probably less consequences... Besides some automotive black studs, some other Hardware items, and threading my own 7/16 fine thread coupler, I use one 1/4" 5"X6" flat metal plate and a 2"X3" angle iron, 5 inches long. I think it's 5/16" thick... I did smoke out 2 drills from making holes... Part of the problem with the aftermarket units is that you have to use their pedal which is Chinese crap. I wanted to use the original pedal like ECI does but they reduce the ratio which I did not like. In fact some of the instructions for the Chinese stuff say to bend the pedal if it doesn't clear the holes in the floor... So in addition to ECI honestly not telling me the truth either that or they're just trying to sell me something such as the front brakes, I decided to do this myself... One of the problems with aftermarket units is that they don't all have stops so you don't overextend the master cylinder... So being that I really wanted to use the original pivot, the original brake pedal, and not go crazy doing all this, I had an idea... I decided to take apart the original master cylinder; BTW, looks like a 1" piston. And then I had a revelation... Why can't I Use the original master cylinder empty and then extend the Piston Rod all the way through the unit onto a homemade bracket that accepts a master cylinder? Of course I can... I thought it was a brilliant idea and basically all I did was use the original bolt holes and I know for a fact this is not going to move 1/64 of an inch... I will post more pictures but I'm a terrible photographer as well as not a great fabricator so forgive my sloppy brackets. But it's strong as hell. I may even post a video... I initially tried to drill out the holes for a power booster and I succeeded however I would have had to have spaced out the booster even more and not really have a way to attach it to the Piston Rod. It's a possibility that the aftermarket boosters have a little versatility with different threaded rods... What are used is the Corvette style hot rod style of master cylinder with a 1-inch bore... However I just bought a Dodge master cylinder from a 1987 Dodge d250 which only cost $20. It has a 1 1/8 inch bore... So I wanted to give it a try. The other thing is the Corvette master cylinder goes pretty much flush to the floor so I cut a hole to show how it's going to sit. I was thinking about getting a magnetic sign type material and putting it over it. Possibly adapting it to floor mat or part of the carpeting to make it easy to get to. I'm getting new floors put in so that's why I'm hacking up my floors. I just wanted to see where it would fit. But I'm going to try the aluminum master cylinder with the two plastic twist tops so it would be less obtrusive to the flooring that I will be putting in soon... If it doesn't stick out too much further I'd like to use it especially since it has a 1 and 1/8 inch bore... Please comment or suggest or pat me on my back for my idea! Tomorrow I'm running all new brake lines and will get this thing all plumbed up... I'm assuming that it will stop just fine... I will post more tomorrow... 2 Quote
knuckleharley Posted May 25, 2017 Report Posted May 25, 2017 I like it,and I have to admit that it would have never occurred to me to use the original empty master cylinder as a bracket. 1 Quote
Mikefaster Posted May 25, 2017 Author Report Posted May 25, 2017 I'm pretty proud of myself because there is 20 times the amount of setups for Chevy & Ford but nothing much for Dodges... Can't wait to show the better pictures tomorrow... Quote
Robert Horne Posted May 25, 2017 Report Posted May 25, 2017 Several people on here have used the original MC as a bracket. I did on my 48 Dodge, using a Mustang II as a MC. Worked great. Do a search on here for this system for more brake projects like this...... 1 Quote
DonaldSmith Posted May 25, 2017 Report Posted May 25, 2017 (edited) Deja vu all over again? Good job, but an independent discovery previously discovered. Another thread shows a red Mustang 2 master cylinder behind the original master. Not to take away the glory, but we can see how others did a similar thing. (Oops, someone beat me to it.) Edited May 25, 2017 by DonaldSmith Quote
Robert Horne Posted May 25, 2017 Report Posted May 25, 2017 Here is another photo from someone on here using a bracket attached to the frame, and still leaving the original MC in place. Quote
Plymouthy Adams Posted May 25, 2017 Report Posted May 25, 2017 it is a very common modification to do the master setup in this manner Quote
Mikefaster Posted May 25, 2017 Author Report Posted May 25, 2017 Well, being I have the car for 3 weeks and spent about 2 weeks looking at master cylinder options, I haven't seen anything posted like this and I surely wasn't looking at Mustang forums for this, just Dodge Forums and there aren't many... It's ok, no biggie... Most are never the first... If you want, I won't bother to update... Quote
knuckleharley Posted May 25, 2017 Report Posted May 25, 2017 7 minutes ago, Mikefaster said: Well, being I have the car for 3 weeks and spent about 2 weeks looking at master cylinder options, I haven't seen anything posted like this and I surely wasn't looking at Mustang forums for this, just Dodge Forums and there aren't many... It's ok, no biggie... Most are never the first... If you want, I won't bother to update... Why would anyone not want you to update? Just because other people have also done it doesn't mean every installation was identical,and someone seeing how you did it might get a fresh viewpoint on how to do it. We all work off the backs of each other. You made your discovery on your own,so celebrate it. Someone else making the same discovery takes nothing away from your own. If anything it reinforces what a good idea it was because others chose to take a very similar approach. Besides,if you hadn't done this independently and posted about it,people like me would have never been exposed to the idea. You did good. Own it. 6 Quote
rcb Posted May 25, 2017 Report Posted May 25, 2017 (edited) I like originality, but a dual pot master is one of those things that offers such a benefit, I can't see not modding for it... even if keeping drum brakes on all 4 corners. Are you also doing disc brakes? Edited May 25, 2017 by rcb 1 Quote
Flatie46 Posted May 25, 2017 Report Posted May 25, 2017 Yea you need to finish it. If some guy researches this in the future and looks up threads on this in the future there may be something you post that others didn't. Or there may be a camera angle or pic that helps the next guy. Thanks for sharing. 2 Quote
Mikefaster Posted May 25, 2017 Author Report Posted May 25, 2017 Ok, thanks all... Will update as planned. I guess it kind of sucks when you're trying to research something and a thread is left open-ended, LOL... I wouldn't want to do that to somebody else. I don't think this website even has anything like this unless I didn't do the right keywords... Frankly, I never knew people called these 40's and 50's Dodges "P15-D24" as I have no idea of the significance... I will not be putting on disc brakes as far as I know, but I know I will be able to with the setup that I'm going to have if I wanted to in the future... I'm sure the original brakes will stop fine so long as they are bled and adjusted properly.. as of now, I'm changing all the hydraulics, but not the linings yet as everything is a fortune. I spent nearly $2000 already on top of the "good" price of $1200 for the car itself... It looks better when wet... 2 Quote
medium_jon Posted May 25, 2017 Report Posted May 25, 2017 Yes, please keep the thread updated. I might do sometime similar. Nice car too. I like that color. 1 Quote
Young Ed Posted May 25, 2017 Report Posted May 25, 2017 39 minutes ago, Mikefaster said: Ok, thanks all... Will update as planned. I guess it kind of sucks when you're trying to research something and a thread is left open-ended, LOL... I wouldn't want to do that to somebody else. I don't think this website even has anything like this unless I didn't do the right keywords... Frankly, I never knew people called these 40's and 50's Dodges "P15-D24" as I have no idea of the significance... P15 is the model/engineering code for 46-early 49 Plymouths. D24 same time range for Dodges. That was the original focus of the group way back when it started. It has since grown to include many more models but the name stuck. Your Desoto would be an S## something model. 1 Quote
Don Coatney Posted May 25, 2017 Report Posted May 25, 2017 Nice looking Desoto. I notice your wheel chock. Your car has fluid drive. This means that there is not a solid coupling between the engine and the rear wheels so if you park on even a slight incline the car will roll even though the transmission is in gear. So in addition to your brake upgrades a working emergency brake is a must have deal. And you probably already know the emergency brake is located on the transmission tail shaft. If you do not have a service manual for your car it is a good investment to get one. They are available in both disc and hard copy. I prefer hard copy so I can keep it on my work bench. 3 Quote
Mikefaster Posted May 25, 2017 Author Report Posted May 25, 2017 7 minutes ago, Don Coatney said: Nice looking Desoto. I notice your wheel chock. Your car has fluid drive. This means that there is not a solid coupling between the engine and the rear wheels so if you park on even a slight incline the car will roll even though the transmission is in gear. So in addition to your brake upgrades a working emergency brake is a must have deal. And you probably already know the emergency brake is located on the transmission tail shaft. If you do not have a service manual for your car it is a good investment to get one. They are available in both disc and hard copy. I prefer hard copy so I can keep it on my work bench. LOL... It was hell trying to get the DeSoto on to the trailer but the emergency brake actually works very well. The driveway is full of rocks so I didn't expect it to roll very far but when it was on top of the trailer I decided to tie it to a car I had in the garage and take a chance because I had no help. What I did is I put that 4 by 6 piece of wood across and the left rear tire was actually half flat because it had a bad tire valve. Then I took my truck and put it in 4-wheel low and drove off a little bit until the DeSoto ran rather fast off the trailer, lol... So what was funny is that the flat tire jumped over the piece of wood but the full Tire stopped the right tire and stopped before it hit the garage, LOL... But I have heard that about the fluid Drive. I know that I have to have a working emergency brake and it does work thank God. I did drive the car into the garage and because of all the Pebbles I have in this driveway and the fact that everything is tight on this car it didn't "roll" Beyond normalcy... Quote
Plymouthy Adams Posted May 25, 2017 Report Posted May 25, 2017 when unloading a roller off the trailer at home by my lonesome I normally place a spare tire upside down just a couple feet or so longer than the wheelbase behind the trailer and in line with the tire...just enough to allow me to secure my ramps and move the trailer. IF for some reason it were to pop over the tire...the wheel will get locked into the deep dish of the wheel...so far none has popped over...if it did ..well, out with the jack to recover the spare... 1 Quote
MackTheFinger Posted May 25, 2017 Report Posted May 25, 2017 6 hours ago, Mikefaster said: Ok, thanks all... Will update as planned. I guess it kind of sucks when you're trying to research something and a thread is left open-ended, LOL... I wouldn't want to do that to somebody else. I don't think this website even has anything like this unless I didn't do the right keywords... Frankly, I never knew people called these 40's and 50's Dodges "P15-D24" as I have no idea of the significance... I will not be putting on disc brakes as far as I know, but I know I will be able to with the setup that I'm going to have if I wanted to in the future... I'm sure the original brakes will stop fine so long as they are bled and adjusted properly.. as of now, I'm changing all the hydraulics, but not the linings yet as everything is a fortune. I spent nearly $2000 already on top of the "good" price of $1200 for the car itself... It looks better when wet... You have to know what a smokin' deal you got on that one!! I like that car!! 1 Quote
Robert Horne Posted May 25, 2017 Report Posted May 25, 2017 7 hours ago, Mikefaster said: Well, being I have the car for 3 weeks and spent about 2 weeks looking at master cylinder options, I haven't seen anything posted like this and I surely wasn't looking at Mustang forums for this, just Dodge Forums and there aren't many... It's ok, no biggie... Most are never the first... If you want, I won't bother to update... Do keep up the updates, we are all here to help each other keep these old cars alive. Often, it is hard to find information on modifications. I kept the brake system original on my 48, except for the MC modifications, worked good.... 6 Quote
Mikefaster Posted May 25, 2017 Author Report Posted May 25, 2017 1 hour ago, MackTheFinger said: You have to know what a smokin' deal you got on that one!! I like that car!! I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder, LOL... So far I've purchased a new gas tank and everything along with it all new brake lines and all new brake hydraulics. And the other side of the car is in Fair shape but there is some Rust here and there which hopefully the guy who's going to do my floors is going to fix the rest for not much more money. Somebody redid this car at one time but it has a lot of undercoating that's peeling off everywhere. Where the undercoating is still on the car it actually protected it but where it's coming off it's pretty Rusty. There's a bunch of spots that are surprisingly good of course... I got the motor to run but there's a stuck valve and I've been soaking it in Marvel Mystery Oil for a week and it eventually leak back down through the Rings. I filled up the cylinder all the way until the spark plug hole overfilled... The tires are like brand new but they're probably 30 years old because they're made by Sears. I don't know the last time that Sears made wide white wall tires, LOL... Quote
Mikefaster Posted May 25, 2017 Author Report Posted May 25, 2017 Okay I'll post a link for a video I made cuz it probably will be a little bit better because I'm terrible photographer, LOL... But basically I was showing here a few different angles... It looks like I'm going to stick with the Corvette style master cylinder and if I ever need to I can always find one that it has an inch and an eighth piston. I think I'll be fine... It turns out that the Corvette style master cylinder is one of those hot rod style ones with 4 different ports so you can put it in difference places. It also has in lodgings mounting holes. In order for me to use the Dodge Ram style of master cylinder it would need to also have the holes in large end and that may take away the structural Integrity of the unit. It's also considerably Higher by at least three quarters of an inch. I was also saying in the video that the benefit of the the Corvette style master cylinder is that you can basically stand on it and it won't go anywhere. So if the hole is not so big in the floorboards, you can always not worried about breaking the master cylinder or anything hitting it from underneath and breaking the plastic. Or stepping on it and breaking it for that matter. The other drawback to the Dodge plastic Reservoir master cylinder is that the Piston Rod barely protrudes inside and I just think for what I'm doing with the extra long Rod that I made, I feel better knowing that it's going deeper into the master cylinder. The Corvette master cylinder is definitely not level with the floor however my body mounts are pretty shot and I could probably gain at least a half an inch if I had changed them all. The other thing is, there is one part of the floor that has a gusset and that's the one that looks like it goes down below the master particularly. This is not really a big deal but you're going to have to modify your floor in order to make this work and I don't suggest not cutting a hole in the floor and not being able to get to the master cylinder. The only other thing I was thinking about is drilling a hole between the two reservoirs so it accepts fluid from either Reservoir and then comma drill a hole on the outside on either Reservoir section and Plumb in an external Reservoir somewhere. If you can Plum it in up through the floor through a smaller hole and have a reservoir under the seat that is easy to get to that might be ideal as well. I think I'm going to use the original rubber boot and put it back on the master cylinder to prevent too much from getting in with the rod that I made. I guess it also will help prevent anything getting caught in the hole with the rod period since the rubber boot already broke, I just figured I'd use it as it is cuz it's close to the size of the rod that I made... when I'm getting my free data I will download the YouTube video and put a link here. So far today I have only plumbed in the real lines because I was doing other things and getting the gas tank out as well... I'm kind of multitasking on this car and now my personal car, a Volkswagen diesel decided to have the oil pump crap out on it so that's another thing I have to do now... 1 Quote
Mikefaster Posted May 26, 2017 Author Report Posted May 26, 2017 Okay I'll post a link for a video I made cuz it probably will be a little bit better because I'm terrible photographer, LOL... But basically I was showing here a few different angles... It looks like I'm going to stick with the Corvette style master cylinder and if I ever need to I can always find one that it has an inch and an eighth piston. I think I'll be fine... It turns out that the Corvette style master cylinder is one of those hot rod style ones with 4 different ports so you can put it in difference places. It also has in lodgings mounting holes. In order for me to use the Dodge Ram style of master cylinder it would need to also have the holes in large end and that may take away the structural Integrity of the unit. It's also considerably Higher by at least three quarters of an inch. I was also saying in the video that the benefit of the the Corvette style master cylinder is that you can basically stand on it and it won't go anywhere. So if the hole is not so big in the floorboards, you can always not worried about breaking the master cylinder or anything hitting it from underneath and breaking the plastic. Or stepping on it and breaking it for that matter. The other drawback to the Dodge plastic Reservoir master cylinder is that the Piston Rod barely protrudes inside and I just think for what I'm doing with the extra long Rod that I made, I feel better knowing that it's going deeper into the master cylinder. The Corvette master cylinder is definitely not level with the floor however my body mounts are pretty shot and I could probably gain at least a half an inch if I had changed them all. The other thing is, there is one part of the floor that has a gusset and that's the one that looks like it goes down below the master particularly. This is not really a big deal but you're going to have to modify your floor in order to make this work and I don't suggest not cutting a hole in the floor and not being able to get to the master cylinder. The only other thing I was thinking about is drilling a hole between the two reservoirs so it accepts fluid from either Reservoir and then comma drill a hole on the outside on either Reservoir section and Plumb in an external Reservoir somewhere. If you can Plum it in up through the floor through a smaller hole and have a reservoir under the seat that is easy to get to that might be ideal as well. I think I'm going to use the original rubber boot and put it back on the master cylinder to prevent too much from getting in with the rod that I made. I guess it also will help prevent anything getting caught in the hole with the rod period since the rubber boot already broke, I just figured I'd use it as it is cuz it's close to the size of the rod that I made... when I'm getting my free data I will download the YouTube video and put a link here. So far today I have only plumbed in the real lines because I was doing other things and getting the gas tank out as well... I'm kind of multitasking on this car and now my personal car, a Volkswagen diesel decided to have the oil pump crap out on it so that's another thing I have to do now... Quote
MackTheFinger Posted May 26, 2017 Report Posted May 26, 2017 Thanks for posting the video. I've been thinking about doing something similar on my P15 using a remote fill m/c. 1 Quote
Mikefaster Posted May 26, 2017 Author Report Posted May 26, 2017 Hopefully I'll be able to test the brakes in 2-3 weeks... I assume they will work very well without much effort. I'm sure a power booster option could work. I started making the holes but it would need to be set back over 3 inches IF you can get something to attach a GM eyeloop style power booster AND manage to get it through the center hole of the original master. I assume you can completely hack off most of the master (area where the hole is), mostly the lower rear bolted area and leave the other 2 bolts to support the pedal assembly. It's going to space everything back under the seat... I was seriously also looking at a 2006 Dodge Ram 2500 master cylinder and/or a 2007 Dodge Grand Caravan master cylinder as well... You'd need metric conversion fittings, but they have reservoirs that have one opening, towards the front. If you put a unit like I just described under the seat, there's a chance you can access it from the rear part of the front seat, if you have a 4 door, or a front seat that folds forward on a 2 door... The whole mechanical aspect of what I did works VERY WELL and I expect it to be very reliable. It literally cost me $20 in steel and around $40 in hardware and a tap... Quote
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