A visit with Earl Edgerton

[sser2]

Yesterday I paid a visit to Earl to pick up a cylinder head that he made for me. Earl lives in a beautiful town of Santa Rosa, about 50 miles North of San Francisco. The day was sunny and the trip was fun, with lush green landscapes of rain-drenched California.

The head is a masterpiece, mirror-polished mating surface, superb casting job, and meticulous machining. The pictures on the web site don't do justice to the beauty of the part. Earl answered all my questions re. installation, and we discussed the casting process used to create a part with a complex internal cavity. He told me that he had produced several hundred heads for Mopar flat six engines, all of them in use, with no problems.

Earl himself is a passionate Mopar fan and one of the few top experts. He showed me his Chrysler modded for racing in Bonnevile (~140 mph top speed!) with all custom parts you can imagine - head with OHV intake valves, intake manifold, Langdon headers, cam gear and valve covers, 12V electric. As he confirmed, everything but block and crank is custom. Earl's garage is like a museum.

Earl is a very nice guy. I highly recommend him for anybody who is contemplating engine upgrade.

[55 Fargo]

I do not see the big advantage of the EDGY head, other than it looks cool, I have heard it may have some issues with cooling,too.

I would much prefer and Edmunds head, if a) I could afford one,

b ) I could find one in great form

That F head conversion is hang on $5500 yikes, and is most likely suited for dry lake or racing of some type, not sure if this would work well for general cruise use.

Cam grinds, only guy to see is George Asche Junior, same on the carbs Intakes and exhaust...

Just some Mopar Flathead trivia, George Asche did drive his 265 powered 29 Desoto Roadster at Daytona, in 1955 at a top speed of 142 MPH, and that my friend was 62 years ago.

That day he beat a Jag, the most modern V8s and a Hemi powered car, with his hopped up bored out, cammed up, triple carbed Chrysler 265 flathead 6....

Edited February 14, 2017 by Rockwood

[Young Ed]

52 minutes ago, Rockwood said:

I do not see the big advantage of the EDGY head, other than it looks cool, I have heard it may have some issues with cooling,too.

I would much prefer and Edmunds head, if a) I could afford one,

b ) I could find one in great form

 

What is the difference between the Edgy and a vintage Edmunds?

[55 Fargo]

18 minutes ago, Young Ed said:

What is the difference between the Edgy and a vintage Edmunds?

The difference is only my "preference and opinion".

What can you tell me about the difference(s) between the EDGY head, and a Vintage Edmunds head?

There are differences in a lot of the heads right from ole ma Mopar too.

[Young Ed]

Just now, Rockwood said:

The difference is only my "preference and opinion".

What can you tell me about the difference(s) between the EDGY head, and a Vintage Edmunds head?

There are differences in a lot of the heads right from ole ma Mopar too.

The only difference I can tell you is one is readily available and one isn't. Now why do you prefer the Edmunds?

[55 Fargo]

6 minutes ago, Young Ed said:

The only difference I can tell you is one is readily available and one isn't. Now why do you prefer the Edmunds?

 

15 minutes ago, Young Ed said:

The only difference I can tell you is one is readily available and one isn't. Now why do you prefer the Edmunds?

Ed, if I really want an Edmunds head, I can have it here by next week, but it's not cheap.

If I want an EDGY Head, it would be here in about 8 weeks, once the order is placed, and the time for it to be cast and shipped etc.

The matter of which I prefer is my choice, as individualistic as a "trans" choice for example.

You asked me what the differences between an EDGY head and a Rare Vintage Edmunds head? I was hoping you had some info to share, on this, as I do not know if you own either of these type heads or plan to buy one at anytime soon.

I could come back and state this or that, or do a Google search and give some big explanation, but why bother.

While not a big deal my point is what anyone might prefer, and it does not mean what I prefer is the best or better, just what I might happen to like better.

 

[classiccarjack]

39 minutes ago, Rockwood said:

 

Ed, if I really want an Edmunds head, I can have it here by next week, but it's not cheap.

If I want an EDGY Head, it would be here in about 8 weeks, once the order is placed, and the time for it to be cast and shipped etc.

The matter of which I prefer is my choice, as individualistic as a "trans" choice for example.

You asked me what the differences between an EDGY head and a Rare Vintage Edmunds head? I was hoping you had some info to share, on this, as I do not know if you own either of these type heads or plan to buy one at anytime soon.

I could come back and state this or that, or do a Google search and give some big explanation, but why bother.

While not a big deal my point is what anyone might prefer, and it does not mean what I prefer is the best or better, just what I might happen to like better.

 

I tend to have product choices similar to what Rockwood is mentioning.  Some times I get a strong feeling on a product that will just give me exactly what I want.  Whether it's nostalgia or the best product made on the market.  Sometimes it just looks cool and I dig it!  

George Ashe will be getting some more business from me after my taxes are calculated and paid.  He is priority #1!

Langdon's Stovebolt has some items that I plan on buying.

I have followed Edgy products for a while, and I hope that SSER2 will be kind enough to share some photos with us.  I have interest in his products and seek more knowledge in what he creates.

 

-Jack H.

[Andydodge]

One thing that is worth mentioning in defence of Earl Edgerton is that he is approachable and prepared to accept orders and ship his product outside of the USA allowing some of us the chance to upgrade our cars...........I found him very helpful to an Aussie that he only knew via a phone call and was very helpful in his advice, I know a number of guys here in Oz that have also had a similar response and good outcomes with his finned heads.........Andy Douglas 

[martybose]

The biggest advantage to an Edgy head would be the fact that it is designed for a modern sparkplug.  My Edmunds takes a 1/2" sparkplug.  Autolite only listed two of these, and the first set I tried was an extended reach plug; turning the motor over caused the valves to promptly close the point gap to zero.  The other plug is a standard reach, but I can't gap them over .030" or the valves start banging on them too.

 

Marty

[RNR1957NYer]

I ordered my EDGY head last summer, and it came quicker than what Earl told me to expect - even then, good things come to those who wait!  An actual vintage head would have been nice, but i never came across one "in the flesh", and I never felt comfortable shelling out considerable dough base on a few photos on ebay.  I haven't installed it yet (got to get together enough working capital to rebuild a 230 core I picked up for my P12), but the EDGY head sure is pretty to look at!  (pardon my messy bench).

[DJ194950]

Now first let me preference this remark from some older reading-

I understand that that the casting company that does Edgy's work likes to do a minimum # before starting on any, therefore Edgy needs to at least get close to that # before getting them cast and he needs time to do the finish machine work. This is how and maybe he can keep his prices within some reason.

This just does make them not always readily available as most of us would like them but workable for those with patience.

Things may have changed with a bigger/steady demand, hence the opening remark. The above post seems? to show some lead time on getting one?

Please remarks from those who have ordered and received a Edgy head.

DJ

Edited February 14, 2017 by DJ194950

[sser2]

I have sent my check to Earl on December 19. The head was ready for pick-up on January 30. If not holidays, I believe production time would be about a month.

I am not sure if Earl orders castings in batches. In reply to my first e-mail, he wrote that $400 deposit was needed to pay the foundry. While visiting, I saw several heads, some looking finished, others half-way through. Earl showed me one head with open casting holes; the openings have to be filled by welding.

Re old Edmunds, I am not sure one can be found in such pristine condition and at reasonable price. I once saw a used Bohnalite head for my engine, but two plug holes were gouged, and surface was pitted. The seller wanted same money as for Earl's head, and there was no guarantee that there was no warping or a hidden crack. Edmunds may warm somebody's heart, but for me and my money its Edgy.

I will make and post a few close-up pictures, as time permits.

[Jeff Balazs]

I have also heard good things about Earl. It is good to see that somebody is still creating and developing new components for these engines. If I ever win the lottery he would be the guy I would have build an engine for me. Besides I prefer a left coast source any day.

[sser2]

8 hours ago, martybose said:

The biggest advantage to an Edgy head would be the fact that it is designed for a modern sparkplug.  My Edmunds takes a 1/2" sparkplug.  Autolite only listed two of these, and the first set I tried was an extended reach plug; turning the motor over caused the valves to promptly close the point gap to zero.  The other plug is a standard reach, but I can't gap them over .030" or the valves start banging on them too.

 

Marty

Yes, this is what Earl told me. He said that plugs are same as those for the stock cast iron head. One should be careful though and use torque wrench and anti-seize lubricant to avoid damage to delicate short threads.

Edited February 15, 2017 by sser2

[Flatie46]

9 hours ago, martybose said:

The biggest advantage to an Edgy head would be the fact that it is designed for a modern sparkplug.  My Edmunds takes a 1/2" sparkplug.  Autolite only listed two of these, and the first set I tried was an extended reach plug; turning the motor over caused the valves to promptly close the point gap to zero.  The other plug is a standard reach, but I can't gap them over .030" or the valves start banging on them too.

 

Marty

This would be the deal breaker for me. Never had any luck out of Autolite plugs.  I dig vintage  speed / performance parts but as mentioned above it's often a gamble. The EDGY head has a very cool look, I could see me owning one at some point. It really dresses up the engine.

 I bet the visit was a great experience, would like to have shook  Mr. Edgerton's hand and thanked him for supporting the old Mopar's. Not many out there support our cars and trucks. You've got to be thankful to the ones that do.

[classiccarjack]

As long as we keep buying from Earl, we will keep him in business.  Every vintage speed part I find is either repaired or needs repair.  I don't trust other repairs by people I don't know.  Perhaps if I can physically put my hands on a vintage head that wasn't run through the ringer, I would buy it.  Otherwise I will stick to 1955 and up factory heads or a new Edgy Head.  My 2¢ worth....

[Don Coatney]

I sent my camshaft to Earl 15 years ago to trim the lobes. He told me that when my cam arrived that the end plate was bent. So he replaced it at no charge. Turn around time was very quick and I was very satisfied with the work he did.

[Dartgame]

I am curious to know more about the combustion chambers on these heads (edgy and edmunds) has anyone compared these to the OEM cast iron versions ? One of the reasons to go with AL heads is for compression. But you can shave a cast iron head down to get similar compression as well.

All things being equal, I would prefer to stay with the cast iron head. Why ?

1) Cost. I already have a spare 218 head sitting in my shop.

2) Cooling/heat loss. There is the aspect of heat dispersion or heat loss in the combustion chamber, cast iron holds heat better than AL. Practical example - Most guys that use AL heads on v-8 hot rod  motors can actually increase the static compression by 1 to 2 points and still use pump gas because of the cooling effect that AL heads exhibit. Are we giving up what is in essence heat (power) by using an AL head vs cast iron ?

Am I on track with this or off the path ?

[Young Ed]

2 hours ago, Dartgame said:

I am curious to know more about the combustion chambers on these heads (edgy and edmunds) has anyone compared these to the OEM cast iron versions ? One of the reasons to go with AL heads is for compression. But you can shave a cast iron head down to get similar compression as well.

All things being equal, I would prefer to stay with the cast iron head. Why ?

1) Cost. I already have a spare 218 head sitting in my shop.

2) Cooling/heat loss. There is the aspect of heat dispersion or heat loss in the combustion chamber, cast iron holds heat better than AL. Practical example - Most guys that use AL heads on v-8 hot rod  motors can actually increase the static compression by 1 to 2 points and still use pump gas because of the cooling effect that AL heads exhibit. Are we giving up what is in essence heat (power) by using an AL head vs cast iron ?

Am I on track with this or off the path ?

I think you are on the right track just not quite seeing it all the way through. That 1-2 point compression increase using the same fuel gives you more power. You are also correct for what most of us are doing with these the best bang for the $ is to shave the cast iron head. 

[Dartgame]

Thanks - Sure thing !

When I mentioned increasing the CR with an AL head on v8's above an iron head - I was thinking about going from 9 or 10 to1 w iron up to 11 or 12 to 1 w AL. That part I understand, what ends up if I am thinking correctly is that the heat in both combustion chambers is the same....? You get more torque & Hp and certainly can run a bigger cam because of the dynamic CR.

Correct me if I am wrong, if I understand this is - one of the limits to flat heads is the CR achievable through shaving a head. So if 8.5 to 1 is about the limit - then what gain Is there with AL vs Iron w same CR. I would almost think you loose some power due to the lower heat in the combustion chamber w an AL head and the same CR vs iron ? Just doing some bench racing....

[sser2]

Cast iron head has one clear advantage: its thermal expansion is same as block's, so there is no thermal movement during engine's heating and cooling cycles. Not so with aluminum head, which expands at roughly two times the rate of cast iron. This relative movement of head and block requires special gasket that would allow lateral movement without compromising the seal. Aluminum head is more demanding for surfaces finish. With aluminum head, even a single episode of mild overheating may cause gasket failure. Cast iron head is more forgiving in these respects.

Theoretically, a cast iron head may be good for CR as high as 8.5, but practically there is a limit to how much shaving can be done without compromising structural integrity. For CR of 8.5, head must be shaved 0.120", which is hardly possible.

Edgy head is one-size-fits-all, as it can be used on 201, 218, and 230 engines. Combustion chambers are 70-80 cc. For a 230 engine the calculated CR is 9.3, and for a 201 engine it is 8.3.

[Don Coatney]

You might or might not find this of interest.

[Flatie46]

Where did you get that milling chart?

[sser2]

I remember seeing this chart in some performance manual. It is interesting that for different versions of Mopar flat six, safe shaving limits vary rather widely, from 0.020 to 0.090. One of the considerations could be minimal metal thickness for structural integrity, but then different allowable thicknesses for different engines do not make sense. I believe the real issue is valve clearance. It is especially important if a hot cam is used in an engine with shaved head.

[50plymouth]

On February-13-17 at 8:06 PM, Young Ed said:

What is the difference between the Edgy and a vintage Edmunds?

Edmunds has more water galleys in the front of the heads and the engines don't  run hot. The Edgy head does.   Claims of no issues, are a little under stated.   Earl is a great guy and very smart. He got into mopars in the 90s and I applaud his arrival although I have had one of his heads it over heated. I bought on of his intakes. It was better than an offy that it seems it was the starting point for, it was not as good as the last Edmunds and I now have one of the new AoK intakes which hasn't been installed yet although it clearly looks superior.   

The other issue is Edmunds heads have not been produced for approximately 50 years so they are getting scarce.   What I don't know is if Earl has changed his pattern to increase the cooling to the front of the head.   I wasn't happy with mine and sold it on ebay along with my edgy intake.   If it wasn't for the overheating I would not have sold the head.  The spark plug holes are different between the two but  I have seen guys modify the Edmunds as well.

You also have to realize that both have the issue of being a different metal than the block and by the very nature there is an issue.  Edmunds built his small and big block heads at a time when the combustion chambers and compression was far less from the factory.   In the early 50s the Canadian big block heads chambers changed and up went the compression. The small blocks did the same later in the 50s.

 

Beyond the look, I would love to see any real proof that your not further ahead with a 1950s cast iron head shaved than an aluminum head.  I have asked for years, and no one has come up with any.     Its a little like the spitfire head discussion.  If you like the look I cant argue with that.   Putting an aluminum head on a cast iron block, is an issue so you best hope there is a major performance gain.  Running hot at the front, sadly that is an issue and you can very inexpensively by a temperature gun and prove what I am telling you there.   You can argue maybe the middle cylinders might run warmer, but there is no reason the front cylinders should and they do with an Edgy head.  I wish that wasn't the case and hopefully Earl has adapted his pattern to fix that since I bought mine.