Master Cylinder kit problems

[belvedere666]

I went to NAPA and asked for a master cylinder kit that fit my 1950 Plymouth. they sold me a kit. I get the MC out and take it apart. The parts that came out of the MC are 1". The kit is for a 1 1/8 bore cylinder. I cross reference the part number EIS 14A that's on the MC and it comes up as a 53/54 desoto/chrysler.  Problem is that the kits that come up for that part number are the same 1 1/8 bore as the one NAPA sold me. Anyone run into a problem finding a kit for a 1" bore MC?

[desoto1939]

according to my EIS brake catalog the mastercyclinder that should be in your car is a E3241 and has a 1 1/8 bore  send me you home email and I send you pictures of the correct MC and the other information.

 

Rich Hartung

desoto1939@aol.com

[Dodgeb4ya]

Not sure why you ended up with a 1" kit. It's not a very common MoPar  size kit for 1946-54 cars.

1949-52 power brake cars use the 1" M/cyl kit as does the  4 wheel disc brake T&C and Crown Imperial cars.

1-1/8" Mopar kits are common and very easy to come buy. I've bought several through NAPA # 143 1-1/8" kit.

 

[Don Coatney]

The silver master cylinder pictured below has a 1" bore. It came out of my 1948 P-15 I am not saying it is original but it was in there. The other master cylinder pictured came from another P-15 and it has a 1 1/8" bore.

 

[desoto1939]

Hey Don and the rest of the group  There are two MC that look alike on the outside but have a different bore on the inside and Don you have the proof

Looked in my EIS catalog   E3241 and E13482  both have the same outer casting.

The e3241 has the 1 1/8 bore

The E13482 has the 1 inch bore

 

E3241 fit Chryler 46-49 Dodge 46-49 Desoto 46-49 ply 46-49  but the Dodge 50-52 Desoto 50-52 and ply 50-54 uses this same MC

 

E 13482  fits Chry 49-52 Desoto 50-52  dodge d42 estate wagon 1951-52

e 13484  uses the 1 1/8 bore and was used on  chry 50-54

e 17632  used on  1 inch bore  chry 53-54 Desoto 53-54

So the biggest think is that you need to know the casting number on your Master Cylinder so that you get the correct kits to rebuild them. 

refer to the attached picture and refer to the Type K pictures and notice the various numbers that have the same body style

 

Hope this might solve the mystery on these MC. This is the reason why I collect the old catalogs and people should take my up on getting this knowledge for their own files.

Rich Hartung

Desoto1939@aol.com

50 Ply MC type K.pdf

50 Ply MC.pdf

[JerseyHarold]

Just a thought...wouldn't the smaller-bore master cylinder put out higher brake fluid pressure (although with lower swept volume) and may be be more effective at stopping the car?  Or do I have it backwards?

[belvedere666]

Thanks for all that info!!!

i just got under the other P20 and without taking out the master cylinder, I can see a number in the casting that looks like 863425

i tried cross referencing with the PDF that  Desoto1939 posted and I can't find any cross over. I would have been able to pull the innards out if I didn't risk busting a stick brake line today, without a replacement.

then I could see if it has the 1" or the 1 1/8.

if 1 1/8 I already have the right kit!

[MarkAubuchon]

I would think the smaller bore would give more pressure, the larger more volume.  I do know that when George (the sand King" Asche rebuilds and sells his MC he installs a stainless insert and reduces the bore size and I quote "it stops a lot better"

[Plymouthy Adams]

none of this is uncommon...the age of these cars..various owners, the many years of maintenance from people who used more than not what they could put their hands on...it is not at all uncommon to find mix and match on the car and why disassembly sometimes prior to ordering the part may be the best advice...

[belvedere666]

13 minutes ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

none of this is uncommon...the age of these cars..various owners, the many years of maintenance from people who used more than not what they could put their hands on...it is not at all uncommon to find mix and match on the car and why disassembly sometimes prior to ordering the part may be the best advice...

I took the part out of one car and just assumed that it was correct. I didn't realize that even though it LOOKED the same, and fit the same, the internals would be different. I bought the kit based on the car, not the master cylinder part number. It was totally my own mistake... but now I'm at a stand still till I figure out a kit number for this master cylinder or I can figure out if the kit I have will fit the master cylinder in the other car.

 I'm learning. Slowly but surely, that so many parts for these cars are so CLOSE, but not the same.

[belvedere666]

5 hours ago, Dodgeb4ya said:

Not sure why you ended up with a 1" kit. It's not a very common MoPar  size kit for 1946-54 cars.

1949-52 power brake cars use the 1" M/cyl kit as does the  4 wheel disc brake T&C and Crown Imperial cars.

1-1/8" Mopar kits are common and very easy to come buy. I've bought several through NAPA # 143 1-1/8" kit.

 

The kit is for the 1 1/8 bore. The master I ended up taking out of the P20 is the wrong part and it requires the 1" kit.

the 1 1/8 kit is EVERYWHERE... but I can't seem to run down the 1" kit.

[desoto1939]

41 minutes ago, belvedere666 said:

Thanks for all that info!!!

i just got under the other P20 and without taking out the master cylinder, I can see a number in the casting that looks like 863425

i tried cross referencing with the PDF that  Desoto1939 posted and I can't find any cross over. I would have been able to pull the innards out if I didn't risk busting a stick brake line today, without a replacement.

then I could see if it has the 1" or the 1 1/8.

if 1 1/8 I already have the right kit!

In my EIS Brake catalog there is a Chrysler Cross reference section to the EIS number.  The number that you are providing 863425 is not in my book so I can not provide any crossover to the appropriate EIS Master Cylinder. I also looked around that numbering and there is nothing even close to this number. Do you have a parts book for your car and if so what number is listed in the parts manual this might help us narrow down the correct MC.

Rich Hartung

Desoto1939@aol.com

[belvedere666]

Just now, desoto1939 said:

In my EIS Brake catalog there is a Chrysler Cross reference section to the EIS number.  The number that you are providing 863425 is not in my book so I can not provide any crossover to the appropriate EIS Master Cylinder. I also looked around that numbering and there is nothing even close to this number. Do you have a parts book for your car and if so what number is listed in the parts manual this might help us narrow down the correct MC.

Rich Hartung

Desoto1939@aol.com

I don't have a parts book. That's the number in the casting of the one that's currently in the running car. There may be another number stamped on the other side but I haven't pulled the part.

i need the car running and driving and stopping until after thanksgiving. I won't be able to pull the other master until then.

[desoto1939]

did a search on Ebay  use this : MOPAR/EIS master cylinder kit, for 1950 to 54. One inch. Item: 5165  this is a GGG kit and has the 1 inch piston. take a look to see if it fits its only 11 dollars. Mike work   used on 50 -55 Chrylser and Desoto so maybe someone put in the Chry/Desoto MC in this car because it might have been a close fit.  Call me if you have any questions.

 

Live near Philadelphia cell 484-431-8157  home 610-630-9188  call me I am at home now if you want to talk.

 

Rich Hartung

desoto1939@aol.com

Edited November 18, 2016 by desoto1939

[_shel_ny]

863425

Body Master Cyl

PDSC

41-48 Chry Des 42-48 Ply Dge

[Dodgeb4ya]

I looked through several Mopar parts books....extremely confusing as to 1" or 1-1/8" bore for 1950 Ply/Dodge/ DeSoto and Chrysler.

The 1946-52 Plymouth factory shop manual says the wheel cylinders and master cylinder bores are 1-3/8" !    That's right 1-3/8"!

Anyway with a 1" piston you will have more braking power but probably more pedal travel and maybe  lower pedal height. 

1

Edited November 18, 2016 by Dodgeb4ya

[Plymouthy Adams]

per my reference book here there is but two application for the 1 inch master in CPCD line up (less truck, I have no truck data)......and no application listed for Dodge or Plymouth through 55   The Chrysler/Imperial used the 1 inch bore with the Lambert disc brakes and Desoto list the one inch for 1950 through 1955 where my reference book cuts off...could be more applications from 1956 forward but I have no knowledge or reference past 1955

[Dodgeb4ya]

Power brake 1" M/cylinders can easily be identified by the 1/8" tapped pipe thread hole on the top of the cylinder rear of the filler plug.

Other wise the same as a regular 1" master cylinder.

I think repair shops or owners never checked the old and new replacement bore size when doing a replacement.

So now who knows what the car originally came with.

Doesn't matter as long as the replacement works well.

[DJ194950]

1 hour ago, Dodgeb4ya said:

Doesn't matter as long as the replacement works well.

Seems quite reasonable to me.

Up to the driver, what makes him feel safe with brakes doing their job.

DJ

[belvedere666]

3 hours ago, _shel_ny said:

863425

Body Master Cyl

PDSC

41-48 Chry Des 42-48 Ply Dge

if this is correct, then the master thats in the car will work with the kit i picked up from NAPA. that's great news!

[_shel_ny]

28 minutes ago, belvedere666 said:

if this is correct, then the master thats in the car will work with the kit i picked up from NAPA. that's great news!

Info that is posted on the internet, so it must be true

search at         Mymopar.com for  863425  says see 1118284.

1118284 shows:

1118284	P 42-54; D 41-52; DS, C 41-49	M/CYL ASSY #3241 U863510 NORS
1118284	P 42-54; D 41-52; DS, C 41-49	MASTER CYL W/O P/B (SA 863425, 863510, 866125)
1118284	P 42-54; D 41-52; DS, C 41-49	MASTER CYL W/O P/B (SA 863425, 863510, 866125)
1118284	P 42-54; D 41-52; DS, C 41-49	MASTER CYL W/O P/B (SA 863425, 863510, 866125)

1118284 in my parts book shows same  info Plym 42-54, Dodge 41-52, DeSoto 41-49, Chry  41-49

[desoto1939]

from the above table entry I was able to cross reference the mopar number 863510  and that crosses over to the EIS Master cylinder number E1687.  If you refer back tot he pictures that I posted this is the picture that is shown on the MC in the type K pictures and has the 1 1/8 bore.  The other two number that xrefed from the above chart are not listed.

So when going to swap meets look at the casting number on the side of the MC. if you finf a Wagner MC then the casting number would be FE1687.  From what I have seen the industry used the same numbering system but some have put their own Prefix number to the unit prior to the use of the same casting number.

So e1687 and FE1687 are the same MC but come from different manufacturers.

reading and understanding these catalogs can be a great learning process and knowledge is great to have.

Rich Hartung

Desoto1939@aol.com  484-431-8157 cell

[belvedere666]

got the other master cylinder out, finally. Took it apart and lo and behold, it's 1 1/8. it'll work with the kit i got from NAPA.

I put it all together today and i'll be dropping it in the car tomorrow. broke the two brake lines that connect to it in the process though.

i guess i'll be making new brake lines soon, unless someone knows of a good source for pre-made ones that aren't going to cost me an arm and a leg.

[Jerry Roberts]

All of the auto parts stores sell pre made brake lines at a good price . 

[desoto1939]

purchase the newer style nickel cooper brakelines they are much easier to bend. I doubt that a napa store would have the prebent lines for your car so you will have to bend and then flare the lines.

 

Rich Hartung