228 Engine rebuild

[Fargone]

I've got the advantage of tearing down a 1951 218 and a 1950 228 at the same time. I've come across some weird supply chain things. I use Rock Auto for reference and supply on a lot of my mechanical repairs on my more modern vehicles with great success. My mechanic friend asked my to get an overhaul gasket kit for the 228. I assumed the the 218 and 228 would be the same part number, but nope. I've swapped the head gaskets between engines and can see no difference. Rock lists two different numbers for the overhaul kit and the head gaskets, though thus far every gasket looks the same on the two engines. Maybe Rock has some bad data in the system or there is a thickness difference on the head gasket? I hope I don't run into too many situations where I have to guess which part number to choose.

 

I planning to build a updated version of the 228 addressing as many internal systems as possible, starting with lubrication. The goal is to have a low maintenance, reliable and strong flat head 6. I'm not concerned about my engine looking authentic, in fact I'm hoping to have a very unique looking flatty under my hoods. This site and others are a gold mine of data and building on the success of others is what I plan to do. Any engine related successes or more importantly failures you could share would be most helpful.

 

My other post seems to have strayed too far of course for the moderators. I'd like to thank all the posters that provided me information related to the engine swap, it was very helpful.

Edited April 29, 2016 by Fargone

[Young Ed]

Could me rock auto is confusing the 23" 218 with the 25"? Also the one difference could be internal vs external bypass. Does the 51 engine have a little bump out on the front of the head right behind the water pump?

[55 Fargo]

I would look for a 250 or 265 to build, if possible, I certainly can hook you up with 1 or the other, and possibly a running engine too.Just a disclaimer these engines do not belong to me, and I would not profit from them either.

For engine parts, contact Norm Dumontier @ Mid Canada Parts 1-204-475-3399, Norm specilaizes in new,ued and NOS Vinate Mopar parts.

 

pre1950 external water pump by pass design, and later internal design.

I would buy quality bearing, pistons, rings and parts, try to avoid off shore crap. Vintage Powerwagon and Terrill Machine are excellent sources too...

Edited April 29, 2016 by Fargos-Go-Far

[Fargone]

Could me rock auto is confusing the 23" 218 with the 25"? Also the one difference could be internal vs external bypass. Does the 51 engine have a little bump out on the front of the head right behind the water pump?

Yes there is a small bump on the 1951. Does that make the 1951 design a better engine candidate than the 1950?

[Fargone]

I would look for a 250 or 265 to build, if possible, I certainly can hook you up with 1 or the other, and possibly a running engine too.Just a disclaimer these engines do not belong to me, and I would not profit from them either.

For engine parts, contact Norm Dumontier @ Mid Canada Parts 1-204-475-3399, Norm specilaizes in new,ued and NOS Vinate Mopar parts.

 

pre1950 external water pump by pass design, and later internal design.

I would buy quality bearing, pistons, rings and parts, try to avoid off shore crap. Vintage Powerwagon and Terrill Machine are excellent sources too...

I will reach out to Mid Canada Parts thanks.

[Don Coatney]

If you have not yet read all the information in the resources section of this web page you should do so. 

 

Pasted below is some information found there.

 

Installing Valve Guides

 

 

 
If you are doing a valve job or full overhaul pay close attention to how the valve guides are re-installed. In the factory service manual one sentence warns exhaust valve guides are mounted reverse from the intakes valve guides (P15 Service Manual. Page 149.) It is not even mentioned in the D24 Service Manual! For exhaust valves install the counter-bored ends upward. This provides better heat shielding. Intake guides are mounted counter-bore down. Most machine shops are not familiar with these engines anymore and you need to warn them about the correct installation procedure.

  

[Fargone]

 

If you have not yet read all the information in the resources section of this web page you should do so. 

 

Pasted below is some information found there.

 

Installing Valve Guides

 

 

 

 

If you are doing a valve job or full overhaul pay close attention to how the valve guides are re-installed. In the factory service manual one sentence warns exhaust valve guides are mounted reverse from the intakes valve guides (P15 Service Manual. Page 149.) It is not even mentioned in the D24 Service Manual! For exhaust valves install the counter-bored ends upward. This provides better heat shielding. Intake guides are mounted counter-bore down. Most machine shops are not familiar with these engines anymore and you need to warn them about the correct installation procedure.

 

  

 

I've read a lot of posts and articles thanks for this one, it does look familiar. I'm planning to do as much of the engine reassembly as possible my self (with journeyman over sight). Machining will of course be farmed out and that will include the valve grind and inserts so thanks for the tip.

[Young Ed]

Yes there is a small bump on the 1951. Does that make the 1951 design a better engine candidate than the 1950?

I don't know that one is really better over the other. You just have to make sure you use matching parts. That head with the bump won't have a matching hole on the block of the 1950 engine. So if you needed to mix and match you'd have to plug that hole. That extra hole also changes the headgasket. You can use the newer head gasket on the older engine but not the other way around.

[John-T-53]

I had really good luck obtaining all of my engine parts from Vintage power Wagons. They sell Badger pistons which I liked because of their heavy duty design.

 

A few tips from my engine building in 2012...

 

Build with all clearances on the lower limit. These engines were "tight" from the factory, so they say. I am not sure if the 228 has the offset rod journal design or not, like the 218 and the 230, but this is one of the reasons for building it tight.

Get a good crank grinder who knows how to cut the journal radii correctly. If he's got a Berco, even better.

Get the block align-honed.

Bake and blast the block - get all the scale out from the water jacket as much as possible. Or, soak it in evapo-rust.

Resize all the rods to the exact same diameter, to the .0001"

Use ARP studs and nuts for the main bearing caps. Machine the washer seating surfaces on the caps so they're perfectly flat. The original lock washers will have probably torn this surface up a bit.

I really liked ARP studs for the head as well, this permits superior torqueing and re-torqueing without disturbing the thread seal in the water jacket.

Balance the entire rotating assembly, including the flywheel and clutch. Also, balance all of the rods and pistons.

Piston to cylinder clearance as outlines in the shop manual is very subjective. Check with piston mfr. With the VPW pistons, they recommended .002".

I coated my piston skirts with a hi-temp friction-reducing coating. If I did another motor I would coat the piston tops and the combustion chambers with a reflective coating.

I would also install bronze valve guide inserts if I did this again too. The cast iron guides on stainless valves is no the ideal metal-on-metal combo. Bronze is far superior.

Do a three-angle cut on the valve seats, followed by lapping to check sealing surfaces.

Edited April 29, 2016 by John-T-53

[NiftyFifty]

Rock auto can get you the correct gasket, but look for a Fargo with a 251 or 265, that ensures you get the 25" head gasket and you need the internal bypass gasket, which I can get you a number as well. The prices up here for rebuild parts are ridiculous compared to the US. Maher I built my engine, I gave ample chances for local suppliers, but at 40-50% higher costs, I went south for parts, northern Auto Parts was a good option for pistons and valves etc, and the gasket set I got through I think Summit or someone back in the day, but my last sets were purchased from RockAuto, and they had the best price.

I'll get you a number later, I have it saved in my folder in the shop for the correct head gasket with the "bump" on the head

[Fargone]

I had really good luck obtaining all of my engine parts from Vintage power Wagons. They sell Badger pistons which I liked because of their heavy duty design.

 

A few tips from my engine building in 2012...

 

Build with all clearances on the lower limit. These engines were "tight" from the factory, so they say. I am not sure if the 228 has the offset rod journal design or not, like the 218 and the 230, but this is one of the reasons for building it tight.

Get a good crank grinder who knows how to cut the journal radii correctly. If he's got a Berco, even better.

Get the block align-honed.

Bake and blast the block - get all the scale out from the water jacket as much as possible. Or, soak it in evapo-rust.

Resize all the rods to the exact same diameter, to the .0001"

Use ARP studs and nuts for the main bearing caps. Machine the washer seating surfaces on the caps so they're perfectly flat. The original lock washers will have probably torn this surface up a bit.

I really liked ARP studs for the head as well, this permits superior torqueing and re-torqueing without disturbing the thread seal in the water jacket.

Balance the entire rotating assembly, including the flywheel and clutch. Also, balance all of the rods and pistons.

Piston to cylinder clearance as outlines in the shop manual is very subjective. Check with piston mfr. With the VPW pistons, they recommended .002".

I coated my piston skirts with a hi-temp friction-reducing coating. If I did another motor I would coat the piston tops and the combustion chambers with a reflective coating.

I would also install bronze valve guide inserts if I did this again too. The cast iron guides on stainless valves is no the ideal metal-on-metal combo. Bronze is far superior.

Do a three-angle cut on the valve seats, followed by lapping to check sealing surfaces.

Thanks John I've used ARP hardware before and it is top notch.The high temp and reflective coatings are an interesting idea I'm wondering what prompted you to try it for your rebuild? What brand name do these products go by?

Edited April 30, 2016 by Fargone

[Fargone]

Rock auto can get you the correct gasket, but look for a Fargo with a 251 or 265, that ensures you get the 25" head gasket and you need the internal bypass gasket, which I can get you a number as well. The prices up here for rebuild parts are ridiculous compared to the US. Maher I built my engine, I gave ample chances for local suppliers, but at 40-50% higher costs, I went south for parts, northern Auto Parts was a good option for pistons and valves etc, and the gasket set I got through I think Summit or someone back in the day, but my last sets were purchased from RockAuto, and they had the best price.

I'll get you a number later, I have it saved in my folder in the shop for the correct head gasket with the "bump" on the head

That's been my experience as well US vendors have vastly better pricing, I'll be buying most of my parts State-Side. Hell, I may even take the whole engine down south for machining as well. There are advantages to wintering in Arizona.

[Plymouthy Adams]

That's been my experience as well US vendors have vastly better pricing, I'll be buying most of my parts State-Side. Hell, I may even take the whole engine down south for machining as well. There are advantages to wintering in Arizona.

yes..your summertime neighbors get a break....lol

[John-T-53]

Thanks John I've used ARP hardware before and it is top notch.The high temp and reflective coatings are an interesting idea I'm wondering what prompted you to try it for your rebuild? What brand name do these products go by?

 

HM Elliott in North Carolina: http://www.hmelliottcoatings.com/coatings.html

 

I had my skirts done in their HM-30 coating because my machinist usually goes that route on engine builds and I liked the appearance and feel of it. Just basically a friction reducer...it's a few tenths thick. They also have a buildable coating version of this if tolerances need to be taken up. My machinist also coats bearings but only on high reving motors. I don't think bearing coating would make any difference on our flatties.

 

Any yes, ARP fasteners on a few select applications makes a difference. I think I paid about $150 for the fasteners for my engine - head, main caps, and cam gear. I wish I had used them for the rod caps and flywheel too!

Edited April 30, 2016 by John-T-53

[Fargone]

Now I know why I've seen pictures of plates used to hang a Flat Head 6 on an engine stand.... crap gotta go shopping for steel again.

[NiftyFifty]

Yes, I had a 750lb stand...it was sagging pretty bad under the fully assembled old flathead, thankfully I had a 1250lb as well to hold the new engine as I compared and swapped what I needed...even the cherry picker didn't appreciate lifting that engine out with the arm stretched out

[John-T-53]

The 1250 stand is essential!

 

This cherry picker that I borrowed was from Harbour Junk, I think. it worked ok, but was at its limit.

[timkingsbury]

I had really good luck obtaining all of my engine parts from Vintage power Wagons. They sell Badger pistons which I liked because of their heavy duty design.

 

A few tips from my engine building in 2012...

 

Build with all clearances on the lower limit. These engines were "tight" from the factory, so they say. I am not sure if the 228 has the offset rod journal design or not, like the 218 and the 230, but this is one of the reasons for building it tight.

Get a good crank grinder who knows how to cut the journal radii correctly. If he's got a Berco, even better.

Get the block align-honed.

Bake and blast the block - get all the scale out from the water jacket as much as possible. Or, soak it in evapo-rust.

Resize all the rods to the exact same diameter, to the .0001"

Use ARP studs and nuts for the main bearing caps. Machine the washer seating surfaces on the caps so they're perfectly flat. The original lock washers will have probably torn this surface up a bit.

I really liked ARP studs for the head as well, this permits superior torqueing and re-torqueing without disturbing the thread seal in the water jacket.

Balance the entire rotating assembly, including the flywheel and clutch. Also, balance all of the rods and pistons.

Piston to cylinder clearance as outlines in the shop manual is very subjective. Check with piston mfr. With the VPW pistons, they recommended .002".

I coated my piston skirts with a hi-temp friction-reducing coating. If I did another motor I would coat the piston tops and the combustion chambers with a reflective coating.

I would also install bronze valve guide inserts if I did this again too. The cast iron guides on stainless valves is no the ideal metal-on-metal combo. Bronze is far superior.

Do a three-angle cut on the valve seats, followed by lapping to check sealing surfaces.

Hi John -  none of the Canadian big blocks are offset. In fact that is why they built the larger block.  Unfortunately most of your information is more relative to the small block and things like lock washers are earlier engines verses the later engines for the big blocks.

 

In terms of ARP studs and nuts, I am not trying to be difficult, but I would love to see the evidence that they are superior to the mopar equivalent.  Now maybe your

point was more to get new if you can get them. Of course things like rod bolts for some engines such as the 265 are just not available in new form.

I agree with lots of your points, although things like Badger pistons I have found they are just heavy vs some of the other brands. That being said there

is a smaller and smaller selection of true high quality pistons and by that I mean forged pistons, unless your willing to fork out big bucks for custom.

 

Now if some one has a good source for forged pistons I would love to know about it.

 

Bronze valve guides, like coating pistons are definitely superior items to stock.

 

Tim

[timkingsbury]

I've got the advantage of tearing down a 1951 218 and a 1950 228 at the same time. I've come across some weird supply chain things. I use Rock Auto for reference and supply on a lot of my mechanical repairs on my more modern vehicles with great success. My mechanic friend asked my to get an overhaul gasket kit for the 228. I assumed the the 218 and 228 would be the same part number, but nope. I've swapped the head gaskets between engines and can see no difference. Rock lists two different numbers for the overhaul kit and the head gaskets, though thus far every gasket looks the same on the two engines. Maybe Rock has some bad data in the system or there is a thickness difference on the head gasket? I hope I don't run into too many situations where I have to guess which part number to choose.

 

I planning to build a updated version of the 228 addressing as many internal systems as possible, starting with lubrication. The goal is to have a low maintenance, reliable and strong flat head 6. I'm not concerned about my engine looking authentic, in fact I'm hoping to have a very unique looking flatty under my hoods. This site and others are a gold mine of data and building on the success of others is what I plan to do. Any engine related successes or more importantly failures you could share would be most helpful.

 

My other post seems to have strayed too far of course for the moderators. I'd like to thank all the posters that provided me information related to the engine swap, it was very helpful.

Your problem is rock auto is far from any place you want to use for reference for flathead mopars.  Next thing the usa 23 " engine that rock auto shows as a 218 is really a 217 and the 218 you want is the Canadian 25 1/2" 218. That is not to say you cant find some parts for your engine on rock auto, but it is just not some place you want to go looking hoping their data base has what you want for a Canadian 228 engine because its just not.

[55 Fargo]

The 1250 stand is essential!

 

This cherry picker that I borrowed was from Harbour Junk, I think. it worked ok, but was at its limit.

No wonder that crane is at the limits, with the boom extended out to the 1/4 ton mark.

I have used a very similar picker many time with many engines, and if the boom is in the right position, it works pretty good.

Those engine stands, better off with the 2000 lb jobby, or heavy custom built like mine

Edited May 7, 2016 by Fargos-Go-Far

[Fargone]

Well today my engine tear down starts in earnest. I'm indirectly benefiting from the fire situation in my home town of Fort McMurray. Several of my friends have evacuated to Edmonton and they're getting bored with being house bound so we are doing garage therapy for the next little while. It keeps their minds off the turmoil at home for a few hours and I get access to a wealth of mechanical skill and knowledge I do not possess. 

[NiftyFifty]

Yes, that fire is devestating and don't look past how good it is for these guys to get away from the "thinking" about it. Hope the tear down goes good, and don't forget to pull the water distribution tube behind the water pump...always all sorts of junk in there

[48Dodger]

You have my sympathy having gone through the Butte fire and Valley fire this last summer.

The moonscape left is a harsh reminder, but this to will pass.

 

Good luck with the teardown....lots of pictures, videos, and notes!!!

 

48D

[Fargone]

Thanks guys the fire has indeed been awful, but the people of Fort McMurray are tough and they will bounce back in time.  Well my friend Sieggy and I tore down the old 228 and found a fair amount of internal wear. The engine will need pretty much the full suite of machining. The cylinders appear really good and do measure up well. The crank on the other hand has a few grooves worn into it. The cam has some nasty chipping that almost look like the cam was dropped during the last rebuild and used anyway. I will be spending some time to track down a machine shop in Edmonton with some vintage engine experience.

[Fargone]

My engine on the home made cradle waiting for disassembly.

The carnage begins and the damage is evaluated.