Flat Head 6 Engine Swap 218 to 228

[Fargone]

I've searched the forums and internet for information on this swap. For the record I have 1951 Fargo (FO-1) 1/2 ton with a seized 218 engine and a 1950 Fargo (FN-2) 1 ton with a freely turning 228 as a donor truck. The 228 has the same general dimensions and look as my 218, I'm just not sure it will drop into my 51 cleanly. They do have the same casting number on the intake and look to be sharing other parts as well. My 51 has a 3 on the tree and 50 has a 4 speed. I was hoping to use the 4 speed as well but, it looks quite large compared to the 3 speed. Any advice would really help me start down the road to restoring my 1951 to road use again.

[48Dodger]

Everything should fit fine. I believe you mean FN-1? I haven't seen a FO-1 listed before. Going from a 1 Ton to a 1/2 Ton shouldn't be a problem as most of the differences are in the bed length/size and axle ratings.

The transmissions that came with the different trucks should all fit as well, Fluid Drive, 4 speed and 3 three speed on the tree. Cutting a hole for the shifter and disengaging your steering column should be your biggest problems.

 

Having shared all that, note the "should" I included...lol. I don't have a Fargo, don't live in Canada, and have never done this swap.

But I do have a large number of parts trucks etc and a bunch of experience with Dodge trucks.

 

Hope this threads grows and you get the answer you need!

 

48D  

[wayfarer]

...should.... since both are 25" the swap should be straight forward.

[Fargone]

When I did a serial number search the records came back as F0-108 the serial number plate includes this information as well. Thanks for your responses guys I'm really excited about this little truck. Tomorrow we pull the whole drive line from the 1 ton. Like a boy I'm excited!

[NiftyFifty]

The Ontario trucks do have a different letter style then US, and that includes other manufacturers, as I just found out when I was searching my 51 F3 Ford yesterday. I'm surprised at the 228 in the 1 ton, almost all I've seen here have been 218's as well...but maybe it was swapped from another truck, but it should be a direct drop into place, with exception of the stuff 48dodger mentioned. I went from 218 to a 251 with no issues, but I also dropped my 4 speed and went to a T5 with OD

[John-T-53]

Never heard of a 228 cu. in... is that the Canada version of the 230?

[wayfarer]

The 228 is a Canadian  25"

[John-T-53]

The 228 is a Canadian  25"

 

Far out, man...

[Fargone]

The Ontario trucks do have a different letter style then US, and that includes other manufacturers, as I just found out when I was searching my 51 F3 Ford yesterday. I'm surprised at the 228 in the 1 ton, almost all I've seen here have been 218's as well...but maybe it was swapped from another truck, but it should be a direct drop into place, with exception of the stuff 48dodger mentioned. I went from 218 to a 251 with no issues, but I also dropped my 4 speed and went to a T5 with OD

Again the serial number search told me about the build it listed my FN-2 with a factory 228 and 4 speed. How much work was the T5 change I'm looking for one right now? I'm also considering 8 3/4" diff with Mustang II front suspension as well. 

[55 Fargo]

Far out, man...

4 1/4 inch stroke, 3 3/8 bore, the 237 is the same except a 3 7/16 bore.

Canadian built engines all 25 inch blocks, right from 201,218,228,236,241,250,265, now that is Far Out Man.....

[55 Fargo]

My engine is a 55, and is only the 228, at least it has the 4 1/4 stroke, until I pull off the head, will never know if it is a 228 or 236.

Bolted up to a 1 ton T 98 Acme 4 spd trans, and a modern Mopar 8 1/4 3.23 diff.

Just got back from a drive, going down the highway nicely at 105 kmh or 65 mph, easily....PS I for a few years thought for sure my engine was a 250, but no such luck, do have a 250 engine good for rebuilding on my garage floor though.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Fargos-Go-Far

[55 Fargo]

Again the serial number search told me about the build it listed my FN-2 with a factory 228 and 4 speed. How much work was the T5 change I'm looking for one right now? I'm also considering 8 3/4" diff with Mustang II front suspension as well. 

Before you get all Gung Ho, with a T5 swap, there are options, the Chrysler A 833 4 spd OD trans, with a lightweight aluminum adapter it is a bolt up to your bell housing, just another option if a T5 swap doesn't pan out for you.

Here is a pic of the adapter plate, they are about $150..

[Fargone]

Before you get all Gung Ho, with a T5 swap, there are options, the Chrysler A 833 4 spd OD trans, with a lightweight aluminum adapter it is a bolt up to your bell housing, just another option if a T5 swap doesn't pan out for you.

Here is a pic of the adapter plate, they are about $150..

Do you have supplier names or web sites for these adapter plates? The A-833 is a much stronger trans than the T5.

[55 Fargo]

Do you have supplier names or web sites for these adapter plates? The A-833 is a much stronger trans than the T5.

Just send a PM to Tim Kingsbury on this forum, he they AoK racing manufactures this item.

Tim can send 1 out to you pronto from Ontario.

Yes the A833 is reputed to be a very good trans, a good gear ratio spread, too....

[timkingsbury]

When I did a serial number search the records came back as F0-108 the serial number plate includes this information as well. Thanks for your responses guys I'm really excited about this little truck. Tomorrow we pull the whole drive line from the 1 ton. Like a boy I'm excited!

 

The 228 came in all kinds of things, including my 1949 Plymouth business coupe.  That engine, the 238, 250, 265 will all go

into your truck with no issues what so ever.  If the 228 came from a car, you change the bell housing to the truck one.

 

You can also slide on dual or triple carb intakes and split exhaust. 

 

Never heard of a 228 cu. in... is that the Canada version of the 230?

 

I will attach some pictures out of the manual. The 228 goes back until 1939 I think.  I would have to go looking through manuals. It was in trucks, cars, and started to be dropped out of some car lines as the 238 motor with 3 7/16" bore arrived, and then of course they just

changed the crank and rods and that engine became the 250 (or 251) and then 265.  Externally, other that looking at serial number,  casting  date and head codes..  pretty tough to tell.

 

But its more in the generation of the American 201 than the 230. The 230 is more the generation of the 238-265.

 

Tim

[The Oil Soup]

Before you get all Gung Ho, with a T5 swap, there are options, the Chrysler A 833 4 spd OD trans, with a lightweight aluminum adapter it is a bolt up to your bell housing, just another option if a T5 swap doesn't pan out for you.

Here is a pic of the adapter plate, they are about $150..

What was the last year of manufacture of the A 833 and what were they available on.

[55 Fargo]

What was the last year of manufacture of the A 833 and what were they available on.

approximately 1974-86 for the OD units, darts, duster, aspens volares etc.

[NiftyFifty]

This is the kit for the T5 http://www.langdonsstovebolt.com/store/#!/Dodge-Truck-Transmission-Adapter/p/1396066

These trucks aren't overly heavy, and the engine by no means is out powering a T5, and their much easier to come across in my opinion, as every wrecker has at least a few old S10/15's laying around. The swap is pretty easy, only major requirement is a welder to fill one of the original bell housing holes, and a good drill press to drill the new ones straight, then just tap out. You will need a new drive shaft, or yours altered, but the gains are huge for performance and drivability. Those 4 speeds in the 1 tons are just geared too high, so at 4th your screaming on today's highway speeds. I used my 4 speed for a year and it had to go...even getting away from he noise is a good advantage.

[Young Ed]

This is the kit for the T5 http://www.langdonsstovebolt.com/store/#!/Dodge-Truck-Transmission-Adapter/p/1396066

These trucks aren't overly heavy, and the engine by no means is out powering a T5, and their much easier to come across in my opinion, as every wrecker has at least a few old S10/15's laying around. The swap is pretty easy, only major requirement is a welder to fill one of the original bell housing holes, and a good drill press to drill the new ones straight, then just tap out. You will need a new drive shaft, or yours altered, but the gains are huge for performance and drivability. Those 4 speeds in the 1 tons are just geared too high, so at 4th your screaming on today's highway speeds. I used my 4 speed for a year and it had to go...even getting away from he noise is a good advantage.

And you only have to weld a hole shut if you have the 4spd. I converted a 3spd to T5 and just drilled 4 new holes.

[55 Fargo]

This is the kit for the T5 http://www.langdonsstovebolt.com/store/#!/Dodge-Truck-Transmission-Adapter/p/1396066

These trucks aren't overly heavy, and the engine by no means is out powering a T5, and their much easier to come across in my opinion, as every wrecker has at least a few old S10/15's laying around. The swap is pretty easy, only major requirement is a welder to fill one of the original bell housing holes, and a good drill press to drill the new ones straight, then just tap out. You will need a new drive shaft, or yours altered, but the gains are huge for performance and drivability. Those 4 speeds in the 1 tons are just geared too high, so at 4th your screaming on today's highway speeds. I used my 4 speed for a year and it had to go...even getting away from he noise is a good advantage.

I have a 4 spd and  3.23 diff, what screamin?, only me, if the windows are open and I am talkin to my passenger.65 mph at just over 2500 rpm all day long, and aint no T5 trans in this world as tough as an old T98A, thats why a lot of the off road 4X4 crew use this trans

Edited April 15, 2016 by Fargos-Go-Far

[timkingsbury]

What was the last year of manufacture of the A 833 and what were they available on.

 

Aluminum cased a833's with overdrive  started part way into 1975 thru  mid 1987

Gear splits 1st: 3.09:1,  2nd:  1.67:1  3rd: 1:1   4th: 0.73:1 (Trucks used a 0.71:1 fourth)

The overdrive configuration with a 23-spline input appeared in these vehicles:

o 1975 to 1979 Valiant, Duster, Dart, Scamp, Swinger, Volare, Aspen (3.09:1 ratio first gear)

o 1975 to 1987 Dodge light-duty pickups and Dodge and Plymouth Vans (3.09:1 ratio first gear)

o 1977 to 1979 Diplomat and LeBaron (3.09:1 ratio first gear)

 

This is the kit for the T5 http://www.langdonsstovebolt.com/store/#!/Dodge-Truck-Transmission-Adapter/p/1396066

These trucks aren't overly heavy, and the engine by no means is out powering a T5, and their much easier to come across in my opinion, as every wrecker has at least a few old S10/15's laying around. The swap is pretty easy, only major requirement is a welder to fill one of the original bell housing holes, and a good drill press to drill the new ones straight, then just tap out. You will need a new drive shaft, or yours altered, but the gains are huge for performance and drivability. Those 4 speeds in the 1 tons are just geared too high, so at 4th your screaming on today's highway speeds. I used my 4 speed for a year and it had to go...even getting away from he noise is a good advantage.

 

At the risk of going around in circles on T5 vs A833,  your right there are tons of s10s in the scrap yards. They have in my opinion, terrible gear splts with 1st gears

usually around 4:1. By the time you find the t5 with a decent gear split they are way more money than an Mopar A833.  Like everything it depends on what you

have available. Around us A833's are still easy and relatively inexpensive and I think are an easier and better conversion.

 

I agree on your comment on truck 4 speeds. They were designed for work purposes, not what most of us now use them for and really most

are looking to use it as a car. That is not a criticism it really isn't.  But a good comparable for me is the splits in the period Plymouths.

 

Here is what they are.

 

Plymouths 1936 – 1940

1^st 2.57

2^nd  1.55

3^rd 1.00

 

Plymouths 1941

1^st 2.57

2^nd 1.83

3^rd 1.00

 

 

Plymouth 1942 -1954

1st....2.57

2nd...1.83

3rd...1.0

reverse 3.48

[wayfarer]

Not sure that I'd use the MII package in a truck..well, I'm 'frugal' so I wouldn't use the MII in anything due to the cost, but your truck-your money.  Take a look at the GenI Dakota if you want IFS.

 

The trans adapter options are based on which bellhousing you have; some work, some not-so-much.

[Plymouth#43]

Again the serial number search told me about the build it listed my FN-2 with a factory 228 and 4 speed. How much work was the T5 change I'm looking for one right now? I'm also considering 8 3/4" diff with Mustang II front suspension as well. 

 

Think long and hard before you  go to a Non-Mopar T5 transmission.  There appears to be lots of the forum who have had success with it. Long ago I took

the advise of a couple of members and went down the road. It turned out to be a lot more involved and more expensive than portrayed.  I should have picked

up when one of the pictures shown was of the T5 all taken apart.  I was told to look for a ranger t5 which I did. Later on the person who seems to be at the route

of the T5 craze  changed his tune and it was then an S10 he used.  1st gear is completely useless. After spending a huge amount of money what I had was a transmission that you start off in 2nd, shift to 4th which really isn't right but 3rd is too high geared and then 5th.   Thank God I ran into this guys blog

 

http://p15-d24.com/blog/17/entry-88-the-rough-field-spotters-guide-for-mopar-overdrives/

 

I did not switch to the a833 overdrive. This guy talked me off the ledge and instead of starting over I pulled the t5 out and had the gears changes to a set of gears that were useable.  Again more cost although less than if I had tossed everything out and started again.  I do wish I had went the A833 tranny route to start although

I was assured on this forum there was no Mopar route.   That was complete, horse s***. 

 

You can certainly find t5's with better gear ratios. They are not the s10 or ranger. They are Mustang and Camaro  and those transmissions are much

more money.

 

I should have went with my gut to start and went the mopar route.   I thought long and hard about posting anything here because in my opinion there

are a group of bullies who have their own agenda and I am sure those guys and their group of friends will jump on here to say how great t5 transmission

conversions are.  I have one, I finally got it going and it was way more cost and effort that described.  If you want to send me a PM I am happy to call

you and talk further on the topic. 

 

I have no interest in others from the bully group pm'ing me looking to brow beat me. Those guys can go pound salt. If I sound bitter believe me I am .

 

Barb

[Young Ed]

Think long and hard before you  go to a Non-Mopar T5 transmission.  There appears to be lots of the forum who have had success with it. Long ago I took

the advise of a couple of members and went down the road. It turned out to be a lot more involved and more expensive than portrayed.  I should have picked

up when one of the pictures shown was of the T5 all taken apart.  I was told to look for a ranger t5 which I did. Later on the person who seems to be at the route

of the T5 craze  changed his tune and it was then an S10 he used.  1st gear is completely useless. After spending a huge amount of money what I had was a transmission that you start off in 2nd, shift to 4th which really isn't right but 3rd is too high geared and then 5th.   Thank God I ran into this guys blog

 

http://p15-d24.com/blog/17/entry-88-the-rough-field-spotters-guide-for-mopar-overdrives/

 

I did not switch to the a833 overdrive. This guy talked me off the ledge and instead of starting over I pulled the t5 out and had the gears changes to a set of gears that were useable.  Again more cost although less than if I had tossed everything out and started again.  I do wish I had went the A833 tranny route to start although

I was assured on this forum there was no Mopar route.   That was complete, horse s***. 

 

You can certainly find t5's with better gear ratios. They are not the s10 or ranger. They are Mustang and Camaro  and those transmissions are much

more money.

 

I should have went with my gut to start and went the mopar route.   I thought long and hard about posting anything here because in my opinion there

are a group of bullies who have their own agenda and I am sure those guys and their group of friends will jump on here to say how great t5 transmission

conversions are.  I have one, I finally got it going and it was way more cost and effort that described.  If you want to send me a PM I am happy to call

you and talk further on the topic. 

 

I have no interest in others from the bully group pm'ing me looking to brow beat me. Those guys can go pound salt. If I sound bitter believe me I am .

 

Barb

 

https://www.youtube.com/embed/EkhJxWsbvEc

Edited April 15, 2016 by Young Ed

[55 Fargo]

Well it appears the above poster thinks the You Tube video is funny or something, never was much to watch Simpson Psychobabble, I was hoping Ed, was going to share his experience on this conversion, don't think he has completed his as of yet.

I do not view Plymouth#43 as whining, or "crying over spilt milk", more of 1 persons experience with a T5 conversion, that did not go very well.

Plymouth#43 has posted a valuable lesson, on how just because a few have done something, does not mean it is the best approach ion all cases.

So thank you for sharing this, it does give the OP some info to consider with respect to the T5 conversion, saving them some potential grief in the long run.

I am not against anyone's wishes to do as they wish, my only issue is when someone like Plymouth#43 tells it like it is, in their real life experience, someone who may not agree, will take offence, and get their "cornflakes" dirty.

I hope this thread continues without rancor, heaven knows there has been enough of that on this board with this issue already/....