Overdrive question

[Harvey Tank]

I have a R10 OD in my50 ply that's giving me trouble, with the od control pushed in and driving down the road I can hear the relay click but that's all nothing else.and then when I stop I can't pull the OD control out, but if I put it in reverse then I can pull it out. has anyone ever had this happen?

I don't use the kick down switch. I set it up using George Asches wiring diagram, using just the lock out and governor with a toggle switch.

talking with G A and he was puzzled. he ask me to send him all the od parts. the sun gear, planetary, clutch and rollers, ring gear, shifter rail, blocker and balk ring. he called me and said everything was ok. so I reassembled OD. road test again and still the same.

I am pretty frustrated. can anyone shed some lite on this for me?

[plyroadking]

Can you upload a picture of the wiring diagram that you used? It would help me understand how it is wired and figure a way to test it. When the relay clicks you should hear the solenoid thunk also. It could be a bad solenoid or the pawl jamming up, or maybe the incorrect pawl lockout rod?

[suntennis]

Has the OD ever worked correctly or is this a new install? Have you checked the contact points in the solenoid? Is the solenoid the same voltage as your car? On the manual control lever, with the transmission in neutral, you should be able to move it easily from one position to the other. I suspect you can not do this which may be caused by a problem with the install of the retractor spring and retractor spring sleeve. When the transmission is put in reverse, it moves the shaft that the manual control lever is attached to. The spring sleeve does not always go in easy. Did you see if the governor works?

[P15-D24]

Bunch of info on overdrives in the Reference -> Downloads section including trouble shooting guide

[Harvey Tank]

The OD never worked when I got the car. when I restored the car I pulled the motor and trany.I had the motor rebuilt, and I disassemble the OD

and found the Balk was broken.

that's when I talked to George Asches about it. he sent everything I needed for the rebuild. new solenoid, Block ring, Balk ring, sun gear,

clutch with new rollers,all the bearings, seal, snap rings, and gaskets. the shifter rail and spring were ok.

Suntennis does the spring sleeve go in with the flange against the case or the spring? maybe I installed it backwards.

Plyroadking Ill see if I can find a new wiring diagram. I got wet.

thanks for the reply's

I will download the trouble shooting guide.

PS stay with me guys....

[suntennis]

The flange end of the sleeve goes against the case and the remainder of the sleeve goes inside the spring. With the solenoid, I would guess that when you installed it you checked to make sure it was locked into the pawl plunger. The last OD I worked on the governor did not work which prevented normal operation.

[oldasdirt]

The OD never worked when I got the car. when I restored the car I pulled the motor and trany.I had the motor rebuilt, and I disassemble the OD

and found the Balk was broken.

that's when I talked to George Asches about it. he sent everything I needed for the rebuild. new solenoid, Block ring, Balk ring, sun gear,

clutch with new rollers,all the bearings, seal, snap rings, and gaskets. the shifter rail and spring were ok.

Suntennis does the spring sleeve go in with the flange against the case or the spring? maybe I installed it backwards.

Plyroadking Ill see if I can find a new wiring diagram. I got wet.

thanks for the reply's

I will download the trouble shooting guide.

PS stay with me guys....

Well I think your talking to the living legend in Plymouth overdrives in George Asche.  I do know you can not have them in overdrive

and reverse, so that is likely why it kicks out when you put it or try and put it into overdrive.  I pulled the OverDrive Schematic from

a Blog on the site that was marked as George Asches.

 

It almost sounds like it isn't wired correctly if all the parts are good. The clicking and not being able to disengage sounds like its got power when it shouldn't and isn't completely engaging when it should.

 

If you are sure of your wiring, for me I would be back on the phone or if you are in range, I would be visiting George Asche with the car and overdrive.   You can read the online resources for trouble shooting on the site, ask lots who have way more experience than I do,

however I would be shocked if anyone alive knows more than George.  It is  tough to diagnose something via the phone or the internet.

 

Keep the faith and best of luck.

[Harvey Tank]

thanks guys:

so the spring sleeve is installed right and the wiring is correct.

I will call G.A. tomorrow.

I will let everyone know what the prob. is when I get it resolved.

[Dodgeb4ya]

You sure the balk ring is orientated correctly to the sun gear control plate. The balk ring could be installed backwards.

Also the control pawl has to be installed the correct way.

If the solenoid is energized incorrectly that will cause your issue too..

[Harvey Tank]

Dodgeb4ya I had GA mount the balk on the blockring, I know that's right. Before I assembled I put the solenoid and pawl in and put 6 volts to it and I physically see the pawl engage the block inline with the balk ring, and I did not remove the solenoid. so I know it is in position. the OD did kick in a few times and that that was all.

Tank you sir.

[doctor dirt]

I'm listening also, getting ready to trouble shoot my OD too. I appreciate the thread and have copied down alot of the

info. I have my OD manual and will be in touch with a veteran tranny shop owner this coming week.

Thanks fellows, Doc.

[Ulu]

Real basic question, but are you lifting your foot when you flip the OD switch?

 

If the powertrain is loaded the solenoid/spring isn't strong enough to move the plunger.

 

Same with kicking it down, the powertrain can't be loaded. There's normally a kickdown switch that shuts the engine off for 1/3 revolution so that plunger can move, because you can't lift the foot: you're mashing it down to get a kickdown.

 

My OD cable had an assist spring that helped the cable move when you pushed it in. It was on the transmission lever. Without that spring it was hard to move the cable in. Out was never a problem though.

[Harvey Tank]

doctor dirt!  make sure your tranny mach. knows these borg warner R 10 overdrives.

 

ULu! yes I  lift my foot of when I flip the switch. I am thinking also that the solenoid spring isn't strong enough to pull the pawl out . I can hear the relay and solenoid click,

and that's all.   I am going to check it out when I have time.

thanks for the input guys.

[MarkAubuchon]

All, I have OD's in both of my cars.  Dual carbs so I have a switch I flip to put in/out of OD  I have found patience is my friend,over 35 MPH, lift off the gas, flip the switch wait a couple of seconds, click and I'm in OD, Sometimes it takes two times to make it work.  As a friend told me this is 1950's technology not 2015

[mopar_earl]

I know nothing about these od's. But do you have the correct oil? Too heavy of oil can cause shifting issues. Did you try pushing the clutch in to get it to shift? I'm guessing they shift on reverse torque and not oil pressure?

Earl

[Ulu]

It shifts because the solenoid plunger goes into the mechanism, or back out. It's all electric, and doesn't depend on oil.

 

I don't think heavy oil will be an issue, especially on an old worn transmission.

 

But rust might. If this car sat a long time, the internal bits can be getting stuck from rust & lack of use.

 

My unit is a '49, and I did a 100% teardown when I bought it. I didn't replace a single thing except gaskets, seals & all the needle bearings and small parts kit stuff. I ran 75w90 gear oil in it, and it shifted fast. So did the one in my Edsel.

 

It should shift as soon as you lift the foot. Click. done.

Downshifts are almost as fast.

 

This might be different if you car has a HyDrive fluid coupling. I never drove one.

Edited August 25, 2015 by Ulu

[harveyspoint]

Someone mentioned this, but it would be wise to check and remember.....I have a '47 Plymouth with a '52 Plymouth overdrive.....I had this OD in my '48 coupe since 1973 and put 25000 miles on it....No

problems ever....I just pulled this OD and put it in my new '47....and gave the '48 to my grandson....

I have read, and it wouldn't hurt to search this out, that you shouldn't use modern oil in OD's....it

is too slippery, and the rollers can't climb the slope in the OD when you release the gas to shift into OD...If you have used the slippery oil, then you must disassemble the whole OD and thoroughly clean it...Also....I went many years with an 8 volt system and it didn't seem to hurt the OD solenoid.....On my new '47, I have two 6 volt batteries to run 12 volts....I tap off the center for 6v for my solenoid using an ice-cube relay.....this also runs my 6v heater motor....until I can replace it with a 12v motor, which will run faster.....

[harveyspoint]

I found, in my shop, a jug of the oil that is recommended for old overdrives....It is...NAPA SAE90-API GL1 mineral gear oil 65-201......I wonder if it is a coincidence, but....Many moons ago, in around 1957, I worked in the Ford Garage, and Ford came out with a Posi-traction....In a short time, we began getting complaints about a chattering when turning.....evidently, the clutches in the positraction weren't slipping at the right rate....So Ford came out with a 'special' oil to use in posi's....that fixed the problem...shortly, we were told to use the new oil in all rear ends, as they were discontinuing the old oil....I wonder if that old oil is what we are supposed to be using in OD's.....I understand that if the oil is too slippery, the rollers in the OD can't climb the slopes to make the OD engage...Sounds logical to me....'Skinned Knuckles' Jan '85, has a good article about OD's.....

[martybose]

GL-1 is definitely the right oil for the R-10's; it is still available from Napa Auto Parts ....

 

Marty

[Ulu]

I used both 90wt Sta-lube GL1 and 75w90 Penzoil in mine and had no problems.

 

But I have had problems with modern "EC" (energy conserving) oils in wet clutch vehicles.

 

I wouldn't put any EC oil in the car, but I might add a dash of positraction additive to the trans if you suspect the rollers aren't "grabbing".

Edited August 27, 2015 by Ulu

[Harvey Tank]

I also use GL-1

works for me.

[Harvey Tank]

I was hell bent on finding out why when I pushed the OD control lever in, and the only way I could pull it out was to shift into reverse. so I used the process of elimination. first I took the OD cable off of the OD lever at the OD, by hand with the cable off the OD lever shift perfect, then I went inside the car and still with the cable disconnected from the OD I still could not pull the OD lever out with out first shifting into reverse. I had a sigh of relief. I knew the OD was ok.so I checked the rout of the cable and found out that the guy that was helping me install the OD back in the car ran the cable in between the  shifting rods putting the cable in a bind, so when I put it into reverse it straightened the cable out, then I could pull it out.

so lesson learned!!

now everything woks great. I can push the control in and  out with ease. I went on a test drive today and The OD did what it was designed to do, in 4thgeer at 25 MPH lift off the gas and I could hardly fell it go into overdrive. I am a happy camper and so is the OD.

SO LESSON LEARNED GUYS. don't let this happen to you. check and dabble check.

 

P.S. go easy on me.

[Plymouthy Adams]

persistence pays off....good find...thanks for the update on the mis-install..it may help someone from doing the same thing..

[Don Coatney]

Is there another thread about this issue? If so you should ask a moderator to combine the threads to bring closure to the other open thread.

[suntennis]

Thanks for giving us the source of the problem.