201 Flathead?

[belvedere666]

i have a 1950 plymouth with the original 218 in it. original transmission. The old 218 has just been falling apart. it seems like everything i do just creates a new problem. pretty sure the guy that had it before me build the engine with JB weld.

i'm ready to just drop in another motor so i can DRIVE already. i came across a smoking deal on a strong running flathead. the guy says it's a 201 out of a '36 plymouth. I don't think i've even heard of a 201. i know i can interchange with a 230 as long as the transmission doesn't have the overdrive, from what i recall reading.

does anyone know if a 201 would be a drop in and go on a 50 without having to change motor mounts or anything else?

my skill level is pretty low but i've been able to figure things out. welding anything isn't an option for me. i could pay someone to do that for me but i'm trying to look for something i can do myself. i like the idea of being able to say " i did that"... even if i'm taking the easy road. thanks.

-phillip

[Andydodge]

Not 100% certain but I think the main difference between the 201/218/230 is the bore and stroke, there would have been differences in the specs of the ancillaries, however their basic design should be the same, ie, intake/exhaust manifolds, carby, dissy, water pump etc should just bolt on.......the 201 had a bore of 3 & 1/8th......the 218 had a 3 & 1/4 bore, 230 had the same bore as the 218 but longer stroke...........my understanding is that they all used the same block/bell housing bolt pattern so what happens aft of that is immaterial, ie, the trans/overdrive installed doesn't matter, just use your bellhousing, flywheel, clutch etc and you should be good to go.........front engine mount, side trans/bellhousing mounts should be identical tho I'd check the trans input shaft pilot bearing is the same in the end of the crank....horsepower is different........1936 is 82 @ 6:7 compression..........1950 is 97 neddies @ 7:0 compression........a difference of 15 which you may notice.........anyway welcome to the best mopar forum.........regards from downunder.........andyd    

[Don Coatney]

Can you give more details on what is wrong with your engine? Swapping to a smaller engine is not what I consider a desirable swap for all the work involved. May be easier to repair what you have. More details required???

[Young Ed]

You'd be going backwards in size and a few improvements but otherwise it will go in.

[belvedere666]

Can you give more details on what is wrong with your engine? Swapping to a smaller engine is not what I consider a desirable swap for all the work involved. May be easier to repair what you have. More details required???

when i got the car it was running. i get water in the oil and i realize that it was all bandaged up. i went to remove the head and there was a head bolt that was stuck partially inside with JB weld and the rest of the bold was stuck inside the block. i succeeded in removing it and got a whole new set of head bolts. the cylinder head has a bunch of rusty yellowy gunk in it that i noticed since the fluids were drained. it appears that there is some corrosion at the front of the block nearest the water pump. i don't know if that's causing the gasket to not seal but it's about a 8th inch in from the edge. i'm an ametuer and i don't know a lot about the inner workings of an engine but it appears that the black carbon build up in the cylinders is really uneven and there are a few valve tappets with really bad caked on black carbon build up. since it's only a few of them i assume something wasn't firing right. i don't have  the knowledge to do it myself or the cash to take it to a machine shop. i've never rebuilt an engine. i've always had 318s in 60s cars and i kew my way aroud them but never had to rebuild one.

[soth122003]

Judging from what you said so far, sounds like you had a head gasket leaking due to the JBweld bolt. I would get a wire brush and start cleaning. If you know your way around the 318, the 218 is really simple. Since you have the head off, clean every thing up then use a straight edge to check for warp. The check for cracks. If everything looks good, It is basically a top end rebuild. If you don't have one, get a shop manual. This will tell you how to do almost everything on the car. These old engines are pretty bullet proof, The yellow gunk was probably a ton of radiator/engine sealant to stop the leak. If you have cracks in the block replace the engine. If you have warp on the head, a machine shop will tell you if you can smooth it out or not. If you can't smooth out the warp in the head, you can get another head pretty cheap.

 

Look under the topic banner at the resources tab, the click on the tech tips and look for the head gasket.

 

Nine times out of ten, it looks worse than it is. The hardest part is staring the job. After cleaning everything up, you will know where you stand and it don't cost much to clean and find out.

 

Aside from the manual, this forum will be your best friend to get you engine back up to speed.

 

Joe

Edited April 19, 2015 by soth122003

[belvedere666]

Judging from what you said so far, sounds like you had a head gasket leaking due to the JBweld bolt. I would get a wire brush and start cleaning. If you know your way around the 318, the 218 is really simple. Since you have the head off, clean every thing up then use a straight edge to check for warp. The check for cracks. If everything looks good, It is basically a top end rebuild. If you don't have one, get a shop manual. This will tell you how to do almost everything on the car. These old engines are pretty bullet proof, The yellow gunk was probably a ton of radiator/engine sealant to stop the leak. If you have cracks in the block replace the engine. If you have warp on the head, a machine shop will tell you if you can smooth it out or not. If you can't smooth out the warp in the head, you can get another head pretty cheap.

 

Look under the topic banner at the resources tab, the click on the tech tips and look for the head gasket.

 

Nine times out of ten, it looks worse than it is. The hardest part is staring the job. After cleaning everything up, you will know where you stand and it don't cost much to clean and find out.

 

Aside from the manual, this forum will be your best friend to get you engine back up to speed.

 

Joe

thanks! yeah i cleaned up the best i can with a wire brush already. i couldn't get some of that black build up off and i wasn't sure if it's safe to use a scraper. i do have a manual. it's helped me a few thing so far. i've heard that these are great running reliable engines and that they get pretty good gas mileage for an old boat of a car. i've found a head on ebay for around 100 bucks shipped. that's not too bad, but the deal on the fresh 201 was only 500 bucks local pick up. i haven't posted in here before i've been trying to do as much reading here as possible. i've used this forum for SO many references through existing topics i couldn't imagine how anyone did all this stuff before! i was raised by a chevy guy that has tured his nose at all my mopars over the years and said " i don't know anythig about that. it's not a chevy" HAHA.

[greg g]

Having the head serviced at a machine shop shouldn't cost you more than 60 to 70 bucks. If it is warped, you will gain two things from a milling process, better sealing and more compression. these engines ran about 6/7 to one so any bump is beneficial especially with today's gas. You can check the block for true by using a straight edge at various angles and trying to pass a feeler gauge between the block and the straight edge. I believe you are ok up to about 4 thousandths. Make sure you use the proper sequence and progressive torque when you button up. And a re-torque after a heat cycle. Some pics of the corroded/erroded area of head and or block would be helpfull. I had a 52 Plymouth as a kid the had 2 loose head bolts, they used to sit in the holes and rotate around when the engine was idling but never caused a lack of compression of coolant.

[soth122003]

You said you found a head on epay for 100.00 bucks. Go to the P-15 D-24 store on this site at the banner above, they got 3 for 50.00 bucks each.

 

Joe

[belvedere666]

Having the head serviced at a machine shop shouldn't cost you more than 60 to 70 bucks. If it is warped, you will gain two things from a milling process, better sealing and more compression. these engines ran about 6/7 to one so any bump is beneficial especially with today's gas. You can check the block for true by using a straight edge at various angles and trying to pass a feeler gauge between the block and the straight edge. I believe you are ok up to about 4 thousandths. Make sure you use the proper sequence and progressive torque when you button up. And a re-torque after a heat cycle. Some pics of the corroded/erroded area of head and or block would be helpfull. I had a 52 Plymouth as a kid the had 2 loose head bolts, they used to sit in the holes and rotate around when the engine was idling but never caused a lack of compression of coolant.

i just talked to a family friend that is going to be able to take care of the machining of the head for me. hopefully i'll be able to get that done this week, as i have to drop it off to him and wait till he gets to it.

I checked out the three heads in the store. i would save about $25 after shipping costs. i could always use an extra $25.

I know the bolts hold down tight. i got a whole new set of head bolts through Andy Bernbaum and put them in after i replaced the gasket and toqued them down. it was during that time and every attempt to do aything to it that things started falling apart. i'll try to get pics of the block and the corrosion up tomorrow. now you guys got me thinking about just keeping what i have and not going with the 201.

[belvedere666]

here's some pics. the lat pic where you can see the "4" stamp shows the corrosion i was talking about. it's pretty close to the edge.

Edited April 20, 2015 by belvedere666

[Don Coatney]

Your engine does not look to be beyond repair. I have seen a lot worse. Can you post a photo of the valve tappets you mentioned with carbon buildup? I do not understand how carbon can build up on the tappets ????

[Don Coatney]

Also a photo of the JB welded head bolt ???

[soth122003]

I'm with Don on this. Your eng block looks decent. I would get a cleaner and soak the carbon deposit areas and keep at it with a soft non metallic scraper. Just let the cleaner soak for a few hours, scrape and repeat as required. You said the eng was running. If it was running good, I would stay with the 218. If it was running bad, I would still stay with the 218. The only money you will probably put into the rebuild are the gasket, bolts, and the machining of the head. Everything else will be your labor, which will only cost your time. The more of your time you put into it the better it will turn out.

 

Keep referring to the tech tips and the members forum advice and you will have a decent to great car you can be proud of.

 

Joe

[belvedere666]

THANKS GUYS! gives me some hope. what type of cleaner would work?

and it wasn't the "tappets" it was actually the valve. rookie move. i've never taken apart the internals of an engine. i was mistaken.

i don't have a pic of the JB weld bolt but i do have a pic of an intake bolt that had a similar treatment and was just jammed in the manifold and a water bypass that was pretty much made out of JB weld!

[soth122003]

Any auto parts store will have a cleaner or solvent for carbon removal. Just remember some are flammable. I am not to familiar with the water bypass valve, but you should be able to get one fairly cheap from Bernbaughms or Roberts maybe even Napa or CARQUEST. Rock Auto just to name a few. Just checked Andy Bernbaughms, waterpump bypass elbow-$40.00. But check around.

 

From the looks of the parts the PO was either to lazy or to cheap to do the proper repairs. I am spending about $50.00 a month doing my restoration and it will take me some time. I put about 500-600 bucks in initially to get it drivable. Now I go back and forth to work in it at about 60 miles round trip 3 days a week, and work on it on the weekends. It runs great but leaks oil about a quart every 300 miles. I can live with this until I get my bank up to buy a few needed items.

 

I know how you feel about wanting to get it driving as soon as possible, and if you got 5 bills for another engine, then you have more than enough to fix the one in the car right now. Take your time do it right and do it once, and the next time it needs to be done, your grandkids can help you.

 

Joe

 

P.S. Post a pic or two of your car.

Edited April 21, 2015 by soth122003

[JD luxury liner]

I think you are on the right path . repair what you have, it looks in very repairable shape.JD

Edited April 21, 2015 by JD luxury liner

[Lloyd]

I have a 1939 Plymouth that arrive with a 201 in it. I swapped it to a 218 from a 1950 Plymouth and it dropped right in.

But I'm with Don on yours, I would not go down in engine size unless you had the original engine and wanted it completely original. Dont know why anyone would want to use JB weld on bolt threads, unless there was a crack and was visible to the original owner or the bolt kept working out. Might check the threads on the bolts and in the block as well. A good idea is to run a tap down all the bolt holes with a little machine oil, then I use a little squirt of carb cleaner to get the oil out and compressed air to dry and blow them out.

Rebuilding the newer engines I always use to add a drop of machine oil to the bolt threads before I torqued them down but these flatheads require a thread sealant because some of the bolts actually extend into the cooling chambers. So the bolt holes have to be clean and dry.

[belvedere666]

i already replaced that water bypass. think i got it from Bernbaum. Maybe Ebay. either wat it was around $40.

 

The jb weld wasn't used on the bolt threads. The bolt had snapped off in the block and there was jb weld put inside the bolt hole on the head and the top part of the bolt was put in. so the jb weld was being used to glue the two pieces of the bolt together.

 

i cleaned out the bolt holes with a tap. the one where the bolt was broken off was a little tight. cleaned it up though. i'll get to the soak on the carbon build up this week while i'm waiting for the head to get machined.

here's afew pics of the car of the day i got it. i had it towed to my parent's house until i had room in my garage. my father took it out for a spin the next day and called me saying "umm.. you got a problem. water in the oil". this was over a year ago and i still haven't driven it ONCE. it's crammed in my garage now and once i get it going i can pull it out to the driveway to get working on all the other stuff.

i believe there are a few things, like the bumper, and the rear right fender that are off a 51. somethings just not quite right about them. i plan on getting 49 bumpers so the front one being wrong isn't that big of a deal to me.

[Young Ed]

That must be a dodge or other bumper. A 51-52 Plymouth bumper would look different but fit better than that.

[Plymouthy Adams]

I was thinking Dodge also Ed based on the slight wider width and common appearance for the 50 model year

[Darbone85737]

I love the look of the ribbed 49 bumpers if they fit the car.  

[Plymouthy Adams]

the 49s are unique but they are so over done on every car murderfier in the world these days that a pristine looking 50 original will be the better look..the gentle roll top adds quite an appeal and is better in my opinion than the 49's of which  Ihave owned 3 and the 51/52 of which I yet own two...

 

this can be argued till the cows come home but they will come to see a nice 50 bumper first....lol

Edited April 21, 2015 by Plymouthy Adams

[belvedere666]

I like 49 bumpers and grills better the. The 50. They are pretty over done but before I bought this 50 I was looking at a 49 and I really liked the grill and bumpers and the wood grain dash in that thing was PRISTINE. The bumpers were rotted out REALLY BADLY on the part where it meets the bumper guards. The car didn't run as well as this one did, but it might still be running.

[Plymouthy Adams]

my last owned 49...excuse the dirty shirt..I had just finished landscaping the perimeter of this newly built shed the car is sitting in...