Starting issues

[Merle Coggins]

There seems to be a few different "starting issue" threads going currently, but I wanted to add a phenomenon that I've noticed on my own truck regarding hard starting. Maybe it'll be food for thought for others struggling to get their engines running.

 

My truck normally runs without issues. I can let it sit for several weeks between drives and all I need to do is crank a little extra, to get the carburetor refilled, and it'll fire right up and purr like it should. However, I have noticed that every year after I've done an extended trip with the truck, like when I take it to the WPC national meets, I have starting issues once I return home. What tends to happen is that the truck will end up sitting for several weeks after returning from these trips before I get a chance to play with it again. Then when I go to start it up again it is VERY hard starting. It will crank like it is lacking compression on some cylinders. I can only assume that some of the valves are sticking open. Eventually I can get it to start popping on one or two cylinders, and when I keep trying it will eventually start and run rough for a minute or two, then settle down and run fine. Once I go through this process I will no longer have any problems starting the truck until I do another extended trip,

 

I have gone through this ritual a few times now, and it's always after having driven the truck steady for a full week, then letting it sit for a few weeks after that. What is different in these extended driving trips verses a simple day trip/cruise? After a simple day trip/cruise I never have a problem restarting, even if it sits for several weeks before the next run. I only have this problem after a long, extended trip where I drive the truck a good distance and for several days in a row. I just went through this ritual again last night to ensure the truck was ready for Todd's Luau this weekend. I hadn't started it since returning from Detroit last month and I knew I would have this problem. Sure enough I did.

 

Once I finally got it started I let it run long enough to get fully up to temperature, and long enough to recharge the battery. Once the ammeter settled down closer to "0" I know it's charged. While I had it running I also checked it's state of tune. Dwell and timing were good, but I fine tuned the timing anyway just because. I will fire it up again tonight just for a test, but I suspect it'll fire right up without an issue.

 

I can only assume after an extended driving spell that the carbon build up will tend to hang the valves after sitting and being exposed to the humid Wisconsin air for a few weeks. Once things get moving again, and the engine starts generating some heat, everything frees up and clears out enough to not cause issues again, for a while.

 

Anyway, that's my long winded rant for today. Looking forward to cruising in the Ol' Dodge again this weekend.

 

Merle

[Dave72dt]

Maybe consider doing a compression test before starting it after the next extended run and check the accelerator pump for proper function also before starting.

[Jeff Balazs]

Hey Merle;

Interesting. I wonder what the plugs look like right after a long haul like that? I used to have a M/C that behaved just like that. It was great for short rides of a 1/2 hour or so but it always oiled up the plugs just a bit on long rides. It would start eventually and run fine but it always did much better if I just threw a new set of plugs in. I figure it was over oiling on the long high or constant speed trips. Never did it on the short jaunts when the rpms varied a lot.

 

Jeff

[NiftyFifty]

Could be an issue with all the ethanol gas you guys run, unless your running premium from certain stations. I know my buddy who does a big US run every summer seems to lose a power valve from that fuel on hs 390 3 deuce set up. You could try and run Sea Foam in your last tank home, or there are ethanoth additives to lubricate the systems for older engines and 2 stroke applications. I know its supposed to burn cleaner, but it also dries things out which can cause some sticking if you have been put big miles on.... Just a thought

I have a electric fuel pump on my truck, even after sitting for 6 months it fires after about 10 seconds or 3-4 spins, no lag in getting fuel to the carb

[ggdad1951]

FEF will start right up, but until he warms up he likes to hesitate and kill when you hit the gas....once warm no problems....

[Merle Coggins]

Maybe consider doing a compression test before starting it after the next extended run and check the accelerator pump for proper function also before starting.

 

I thought about that too, but I know it's a compression thing as I can tell by how it cranks that only a couple of cylinders have compression. And I know the accelerator pump is working, and even confirmed that during the recent event. And as I suspected, last night I went out and it fired right up without an issue. One pump on the pedal and step on the starter. It's running before you can count to 1.

 

Hey Merle;

Interesting. I wonder what the plugs look like right after a long haul like that? I used to have a M/C that behaved just like that. It was great for short rides of a 1/2 hour or so but it always oiled up the plugs just a bit on long rides. It would start eventually and run fine but it always did much better if I just threw a new set of plugs in. I figure it was over oiling on the long high or constant speed trips. Never did it on the short jaunts when the rpms varied a lot.

 

Jeff

 

Interesting thought. It'll probably be a while before I get another run like that to test it, but it's an idea to look into.

 

Could be an issue with all the ethanol gas you guys run, unless your running premium from certain stations. I know my buddy who does a big US run every summer seems to lose a power valve from that fuel on hs 390 3 deuce set up. You could try and run Sea Foam in your last tank home, or there are ethanoth additives to lubricate the systems for older engines and 2 stroke applications. I know its supposed to burn cleaner, but it also dries things out which can cause some sticking if you have been put big miles on.... Just a thought

I have a electric fuel pump on my truck, even after sitting for 6 months it fires after about 10 seconds or 3-4 spins, no lag in getting fuel to the carb

 

I could try a fuel additive, or I could just force myself to go out and start it more often after I get home from one of these trips so it doesn't sit so long.

 

FEF will start right up, but until he warms up he likes to hesitate and kill when you hit the gas....once warm no problems....

 

My truck is the same, normally. It will stumble upon acceleration until it warms up a bit. If I use the choke just right I can avoid that, but it's easier to just deal with it until it warms up.

[HanksB3B]

Maybe that's what Marvel Mystery Oil is made for ?

 

humm    

 

Hank 

[Jeff Balazs]

FEF will start right up, but until he warms up he likes to hesitate and kill when you hit the gas....once warm no problems....

Oh yes......these engines definitely like to be warmed up for a few minutes. I have found that some of this has been minimized on my truck since I put the pertronix module and coil in. Now all I have the first few minutes is a bit of very brief hesitation which doesn't really seem to be carb related.  I am going to try some different plugs starting with some NGK's to see if I can fine tune this hesitation out.

It is just a guess on my part but I think that when these engines are cold they just don't seem to burn the entire mixture charge that well. Maybe a slightly different plug will help with that?

 

Jeff

[Don Coatney]

My flathead runs much better after a few minutes of warm up time. Also after a long time of not being started it takes a few starter motor bursts to re-prime the carburetors as the ethanol mixture seems to evaporate much more so than non ethanol gasoline. An electric fuel pump used as a primer/booster would probably cure this. Once my engine is up to operating temperature it fires off in a nanosecond. 

[HanksB3B]

Most times, my truck fires up on first crank sometimes it takes after two or three pedal pumps of gas. At idle I just need a moment of clutch contact in reverse to get out of the parking place and then coast down the driveway idling in neutral. At this point the engine has been idling for 3-4 minutes. When I drive through the gate to the street I pull the choke out about a half inch. This smooths out the hesitation until my temp gauge reaches operating temperature. Once that happens the choke is pushed all the way in and the truck runs the way it should. I guess I should count my truck blessings these days. 

 

Hank 

Edited August 22, 2014 by HanksB3B

[48Dodger]

These are my random thoughts.

 

Excessive condensation? I know cold starts include the heat exchange that creates and eliminates moisture inside the engine (ex. water out the tailpipe), but the weather outside the engine can affect the weather inside the engine cylinder when sitting around idle.

 

In racing, I use cold plugs so not to preignite the gas that is under 11:1 compression. The higher the compression the more Octane you can use .....if you use high Octane gas with a low compression engine the car will not reach its power potential. Eric was next to me at Bonneville and was running a L6 with 7:1 compression, NOS, and 100 plus Octane......I said "Why 100+? You dont have enough compression to get that top end, switch to 93 or 95 Octane". he posted faster times and eventually blew the head gasket....Wohoo! That's racin'!

 

If a guy is running the wrong gas, with the wrong plug, with the wrong advance, with it to lean or to rich, and the wrong lubra-ca-she-on.....and when I say all that, I mean outside the "sweet spot"......the engine will run rough and be a bitch to start. But when she's warmed up....a lot of that stuff is easy to hide. The practice is called "Power Tuning", which is the process of finding the little things that make a difference in perfomance. Gotta read those plugs after different "pulls"...

 

Just some thoughts that ran through my head after reading this thread.

 

48D

[Don Coatney]

Eric, would that be this car?

 

 

[wallytoo]

I can only assume after an extended driving spell that the carbon build up will tend to hang the valves after sitting and being exposed to the humid Wisconsin air for a few weeks. Once things get moving again, and the engine starts generating some heat, everything frees up and clears out enough to not cause issues again, for a while.

interesting problem, merle. hard to figure it being carbon, though. why would it build up on long trips and not on short trips? seems that on long trips, you'd stay at operating temp longer, and would burn off carbon. and oil fouling might happen, but why would it go away after short trips? once oil-fouled, the plugs aren't going to get better.

Could be an issue with all the ethanol gas you guys run, unless your running premium from certain stations.

I have a electric fuel pump on my truck, even after sitting for 6 months it fires after about 10 seconds or 3-4 spins, no lag in getting fuel to the carb

that's pretty comical. i run the basic grade of ethanol-laced gas, run the stock fuel pump only, and after sitting for over a month, my truck is running after about 2 to 3 seconds of starter engagement. if i use it within a few days, it starts instantly. after the rebuild, i've never had to crank it for even 5 seconds to have it running, including letting it sit for about 4 months at one point. 10 seconds of cranking to get your engine started indicates something is wrong with: a, fuel delivery b, ignition system c, engine/compression or all three.

[Jeff Balazs]

These are my random thoughts.

 

Excessive condensation? I know cold starts include the heat exchange that creates and eliminates moisture inside the engine (ex. water out the tailpipe), but the weather outside the engine can affect the weather inside the engine cylinder when sitting around idle.

 

In racing, I use cold plugs so not to preignite the gas that is under 11:1 compression. The higher the compression the more Octane you can use .....if you use high Octane gas with a low compression engine the car will not reach its power potential. Eric was next to me at Bonneville and was running a L6 with 7:1 compression, NOS, and 100 plus Octane......I said "Why 100+? You dont have enough compression to get that top end, switch to 93 or 95 Octane". he posted faster times and eventually blew the head gasket....Wohoo! That's racin'!

 

If a guy is running the wrong gas, with the wrong plug, with the wrong advance, with it to lean or to rich, and the wrong lubra-ca-she-on.....and when I say all that, I mean outside the "sweet spot"......the engine will run rough and be a bitch to start. But when she's warmed up....a lot of that stuff is easy to hide. The practice is called "Power Tuning", which is the process of finding the little things that make a difference in perfomance. Gotta read those plugs after different "pulls"...

 

Just some thoughts that ran through my head after reading this thread.

 

48D

Tim

That is sort of what I was suggesting. We have to take into account the fact that these are road vehicles (not racers) and that we are burning pump gas. But the most significant thing is the actual driving conditions.  And it is a very complex and variable set of conditions. If you allow for difference in engine condition and the formulation of modern fuel it becomes clear that what works for one guy may not fly with another.

 

One seemingly common denominator is the hesitation many of us have mentioned we have..... when the engine is not completely up to operating temperature. I think there is a clue there to what is actually happening. I don't think that the mixture charge is getting completely burned off. What I think is happening is that the plugs are being fouled by fuel as opposed to oil. Running wet is another way to put it. This is much harder to spot and often it can clear away after a good run. unlike an oil fouled plug. As I mentioned in an earlier post I am going to experiment with some different plugs to see if some improvement can be made.

 

Jeff

[wallytoo]

One seemingly common denominator is the hesitation many of us have mentioned we have..... when the engine is not completely up to operating temperature. I think there is a clue there to what is actually happening. I don't think that the mixture charge is getting completely burned off. What I think is happening is that the plugs are being fouled by fuel as opposed to oil.

the mystery is why does whatever is happening to merle's engine happen after a long run, yet does not happen after repeated short runs? and why does it go away after the long run by doing nothing other than eventually getting it to start and run for a short time? if oil fouled, the plugs don't get better by themselves. if fuel fouled, why does the long run make it worse than the short run?

[wallytoo]

merle, one thought about the valves. after the long run, when you get back and park it, do you let it idle for a period to cool off, or just shut it down? maybe next time you use it that way, do the opposite, and see if that makes any difference.

[48Dodger]

Yep, it was that Eric.

 

48D

 

September 2011

 

Img 1: left to right, my son Zac, Me, Eric's friend, Eric, Eric's other friend.

img 2: The 3 holes are for the air ram

img 3: Me making a run a very frickin hard salt base (had a 4 wheel drift)

Edited August 22, 2014 by 48dodger

[janan5243]

I had a 1955 Desoto sedan in the early 80's with a hemi & had a similar problem. The difference was that it wouldn't start after sitting a while. I could push it down the block in gear & it would start. After that, as long as I started & ran it every couple of days it would start on it's own. It would run fine & didn't smoke like it was burning oil. I think it had low compression &  couldn't build enough to fire. Once it got some oil up, it would be fine. After the next long trip, I would check compression & then check it again after short runs. It is possible that the fuel has to be pumped up because Ethanol mixed fuel evaporates faster than real gas. After first compression check, you could put a little oil in cylinders to see what happens.

[Ram Man 02]

as mentioned previously, my first thought points toward fuel. my dad has several old tractors and swore he could tell they ran worse with the ethanol gas from the station verses filling up at home. he used to also have a lead additive put into the fuel at home. he said there was less valve chatter with it. now i never noticed the difference but i dont really have the ear for that type of stuff either. I dont think you can get the leaded farm gas anymore but i do know there is non ethanol fuel out there. there is even a station 10 mins from me that has it at the pump. i try to fill my truck up there when i can.

Good luck!

[Merle Coggins]

Ok, so the carbon build up though was probably out in left field. I'm more thinking along the lines like Wally that it's actually burning all of that off. Then with cleaner metal the moist Wisconsin air is able to rust things up while it sits causing things to stick. Once I get it all freed up and working again all is well, until I run it hard and clean it all off again. I guess I'll just have to be dedicated to not let it sit after an extended use period.

 

As for the Oxygenated, ethanol added, gas... that's all that's available around here. It's mandated in SE Wisconsin. There used to be a few stations outside the mandated area that carried non-ethanol gas, but they're getting harder to find. Plus it's a 30-40 mile drive out there anyway. Not worth the trip for "regular" gas.

 

Thanks for all of your thoughts on this.

[MBF]

Long before ethanol was around back in the 80's I had a 39 Dodge dumptruck that we used on the farm.  It it sat for a month or more, any exhaust valve in the open position would stick. They could usually be freed by removing the side covers and tapping the retainer.   It sat for almost a year one time, and we had to pull the head to try to free them up and broke one guide.   I've got a couple of Gravely one with the Gravely engine, and one with the Kohler.  Neither will run good in the warm weather without mixing in a 1/2 shot glas of MM oil in the gas.  The Gravely engine will run for about 20 minutes and then it will hang the exhaust valve and coast down to a stop w/o compression.  If it sits for an hour or so, the valve releases and will start again and run good for about the same duration.  With a shot of MMO I've used it all day mowing in the rows between the Christmas trees.

[Jeff Balazs]

Merle;

You wouldn't happen to be running a synthetic oil would you?

 

Jeff

[Merle Coggins]

Yes I am.

[Jeff Balazs]

Merle;

You might want to try a conventional oil and see if that makes a difference. I have known several fellows who have tried to run synthetics in a variety of vintage engines and had problems. I believe they are just too effective at reducing friction for the sort of tolerances and metals used in older production type engines. I don't claim to be an expert on the subject but I do know of a few cases where people have had problems with rings as an example ....... that became less than effective when they switched over to synthetics.

 

Years ago we had a Volvo 240 that had about 95K on the odometer. I switched over to using Redline synthetic......and I had to reset the idle as it jumped up almost 200 rpm with the change in oil. The car ran fine for years with this oil....but I will never forget that or what it told me about how slippery that stuff really is.

 

Jeff

[Jerry Roberts]

MMO advertises that when added to the oil , it prevents valve sticking and clatter . I don't usually go for  ' miracle in a can '  products but I will give this a try . My truck also sits for long periods of time . It sells for $22/ gal. or $6.20/ qt .  EDIT ;  Walmart has it at $15.87/ gal .  I had thought that I was flooding my engine when starting it after a long time sitting , but it makes sense that a valve or two have been hanging up . 

Edited August 25, 2014 by Jerry Roberts