Having SERIOUS Trouble getting truck to start!!!!!

[pflaming]

It is obvious some do not know how to correctly hand crank a engine. When is was in high school, dad had an F 20 farmall, a MM Model U, a continental engine on the John Deere Combine, and a mopar engine in the Massy Harris wheat harvestor. All of these were hand crank engines. No one on our family ever suffered any enjury cranking these engines becasue: (1) Dad kept them tuned properly and (2) we were taught to ALWAYS pull UP on the crank one pull at a time. Engines that had to be spun to start were the ones that broke arms. Now if and when the engine would backfire, the crank would simply pull our of our hand and thus no pressure on the arm.

[T120]

 (3) - Position of thumb....

[fortunateson]

All great suggestions.  I have persistance but patience comes and goes.  I guess I'm lucky I don't drink coffee (th ewife thinks my crotch is hot emough as is!).  I'll read that linked post right now.  Thanks to all.

[fortunateson]

I just want to check something;  if the distributor is out 180 degrees then would it not point in th eopposite direction/  Does TDC occur on compression and exhaust strokes as Ive been told?  I forgot to mention that there is a rubber "o" ring on the base of the distributor where it enters th eblock.  Good or bad?  I'll try to post the model number of the distibutor as one of you may know if I am using the correct rotor.  I read all the posts on the linked thread; lots of ideas.  I'm going to 2x check the wire (16 gauge?) from the coil to the distributor to make sure th eterminals are well connected.  Also wondering about "indexing" the oil pump.  Maybe that might be an issue.  Thanks for all ideas and encouragement.

[pflaming]

Hey 'lucky at love, unfortunate at wrenching'. I'm going to attempt to get mine running before you get yet your running, nothing persoanal, hope you understand.

[Dave72dt]

Yes, compression and exhaust.  Piston reaches the top of the cylinder when compressing the fuel/air mixture, both valves closed and when expelling the burnt gasses, exhaust valve open. That means the crankshaft has to make 2 revolutions to complete the process.   The timing marks will line up twice.  The rotor makes 1 revolution for every 2 crank revolutions so it could be right or it could be 180 off if going by only the timing marks.  It will only run when the plug is fired on the compression stroke.  TDC on the compression stroke is the fuel's most volatile point and is fired at that point or a few degrees before.  Too many degrees before and the engine fights against the starter, too many degrees late and it wastes the potential energy of the gas mixture.

Edited August 18, 2014 by Dave72dt

[Jeff Balazs]

All great suggestions.  I have persistance but patience comes and goes.  I guess I'm lucky I don't drink coffee (th ewife thinks my crotch is hot emough as is!).  I'll read that linked post right now.  Thanks to all.

I suggest you work on the patience factor. Not sure how you would be able to enjoy one of these old trucks without a good dose of it.

Jeff

[fortunateson]

Well i'm back.  Did the static timing thing and it work like a charm; I believe I'm at TDC on #1 cyl.  Good spark.  Still can't get it to even try to start.  Th erotor points at 9:00 which is not what it is supposed to do as i believe it's supposed to be closer to 7:00.  Checked carb again and it squirts real good.  So... anybody have anything to add?If I'm out by 180 degrees the rotor would point at 3:00 correct?  And if I am out 180 degrees how would I get the rotor to point nearer to 7:00?  Thanks in advance.

[fortunateson]

Well i'm back.  Did the static timing thing and it work like a charm; I believe I'm at TDC on #1 cyl.  Good spark.  Still can't get it to even try to start.  Th erotor points at 9:00 which is not what it is supposed to do as i believe it's supposed to be closer to 7:00.  Checked carb again and it squirts real good.  So... anybody have anything to add?If I'm out by 180 degrees the rotor would point at 3:00 correct?  And if I am out 180 degrees how would I get the rotor to point nearer to 7:00?  Thanks in advance.

[Brent B3B]

Well i'm back.  Did the static timing thing and it work like a charm; I believe I'm at TDC on #1 cyl.  Good spark.  Still can't get it to even try to start.  Th erotor points at 9:00 which is not what it is supposed to do as i believe it's supposed to be closer to 7:00.  Checked carb again and it squirts real good.  So... anybody have anything to add?If I'm out by 180 degrees the rotor would point at 3:00 correct?  And if I am out 180 degrees how would I get the rotor to point nearer to 7:00?  Thanks in advance.

I had an issue starting, I ended up removing the minor adjustment screw and turned the distributor back to near "7"..... Turned out I was a tooth off......

[Don Coatney]

I had an issue starting, I ended up removing the minor adjustment screw and turned the distributor back to near "7"..... Turned out I was a tooth off......

What was a tooth off?

[NiftyFifty]

The distributor on a flat head can only go in two ways, as its a slotted end, not just a gear, but are you getting any kind of firing at all?or firing but won't stay running?

[MBF]

Bring #1 to TDC again on the compression stroke.  Loosen the distributor hold down bolts and try to rotate the housing so that the tip of the rotor is pointing to whatever post the #1 spark plug wire is located in the cap.  If you can't get enough movement of the housing to make it line up, move the spark plug wires 1 position at a time until you have movement enough to line up the rotor.  From that point start going in a clockwise direction to relocate the wires in the cap.  Firing order should be 1-5-3-6-2-4.  Mike

[BigDaddyO]

I had an issue starting, I ended up removing the minor adjustment screw and turned the distributor back to near "7"..... Turned out I was a tooth off......

[Dave72dt]

If during your static timing setup, the timing marks were at TDC and the rotor was pointing to 9, that's where your # 1 plug wire needs to be, not at 7.

[Jeff Balazs]

If during your static timing setup, the timing marks were at TDC and the rotor was pointing to 9, that's where your # 1 plug wire needs to be, not at 7.

Dave;

Please correct me if I am wrong ...... but if it were that far off from 7 that would seem to indicate that the oil pump is indexed incorrectly. Or could that also happen if the timing chain was not installed correctly?

 

Jeff

[Dave72dt]

Probably indexed wrong.  That would be a more common error and easily compensated for on the exterior.  It could be cam timing also, unlikely though, if it has run previously.

[Jeff Balazs]

Probably indexed wrong.  That would be a more common error and easily compensated for on the exterior.  It could be cam timing also, unlikely though, if it has run previously.

Yes....but as the owner stated it has always been extremely difficult to start......and he has not said anything about how it ran once started.

Just something to consider during the troubleshooting process.

 

As we look at a problem like this we know that if everything is as it should be.... then 7 oclock is the position the rotor should be in at TDC on #1 cylinder. And this should be achieved with the distributor adjustment points set around the center of their respective adjustment ranges. This is the way it was intended to be set up....and not at one extreme or another in the adjustment range. When it is finally set up this way it is then a simple process to fine tune the timing. Something you might not ever be able to do if you start with the distributor adjustments at one extreme or another.

 

Jeff

[Dave72dt]

You do the simple things first.  As they are tested and verified correct, you move on to the more unlikely suspects.  It has spark ( at the right time is unknown ), compression ( or had ), and fuel.  Amount of compression at this time, after all the cranking and fuel washing the walls down is unknown.  There are a lot of other unknowns.  Is the manifold tight to the block, carb tight to the manifold. How did it run when it did run.  Has the engine been rebuilt and did it ever run right since rebuilding.  Have new timing gears and chain  been installed and not run right since.

 

As you can see some are easy to check and verify, others are more difficult.  Easy ones generally don't cost too much either.  It becomes a process of elimination done in a logical order.

[Don Coatney]

The distributor on a flat head can only go in two ways, as its a slotted end, not just a gear,

That is true but the oil pump can be one or many teeth off if not indexed per the book. So I still must ask what was off by a tooth? 

[Brent B3B]

That is true but the oil pump can be one or many teeth off if not indexed per the book. So I still must ask what was off by a tooth?

You are funny Don, yes, the oil pump was off a tooth.

[Plymouthy Adams]

I have no tech data for trucks..but if everything is coming up daisies in your checks and still have start issue..have you considered the actually tune up parts used...cars for one have two different distributor and caps and rotors must match am not sure if truck shared this issue...but if you have the tall cap and short rotor..forget about running..

[MBF]

You may want to go one step further and bring #1 up to TCD on the compression stroke and then pull the front side cover off to see if both valves are the #1 cylinder are fully closed with some clearance between the bottom of the valve stem and the top of the lifter.  You may want to make sure all valves are moving and closing fully.  If they are, with the timing mark lined up, see how far you can rotate the crank in both directions before the rotor starts to move.  That will tell you if your timing chain is getting worn and has possibly jumped a tooth or more.  Hopefully it is something simple, but I have personally seen two vehicles that I drove into the garage running fine that refused to start the next day because the timing chain had jumped when they were shut down.   Mike

Edited August 23, 2014 by MBFowler

[Don Coatney]

I have personally seen two vehicles that I drove into the garage running fine that refused to start the next day because the timing chain had jumped when they were shut down.   Mike

That is interesting. I have never seen that on a Mopar flathead 6 cylinder engine.

[Plymouthy Adams]

Ford small block V8's of old would be subject to this in heartbeat with the nylon/plastic cam gear for 'quiet' operation..they extended this to include the direct drive smaller import V6's they used and just last week I learned that they have a "silent" recall on the newer OHV engines due to this very same faulty design of ole  that proved to be inefficient..

 

those gears would shatter with the least bit of kickback on the crankshaft due to brittleness after a bit of aging.., often not much aging was needed for it to fail..even have replaced under warranty....I have replaced a good number of these myself..I still keep waiting for that certain "light" to come on