New guy with 1950 DeSoto - starting issue

[Lumpy]

Did you take off the carb, and give it some short shots of starting fluid directly into the manifold, as the motor is cranking over? Please please please. Humor me. Carb is so easy to take off, and plugs are so easy to foul out with just a couple pumps of the throttle. !!!

 

ken.

[Wilf DeSoto]

I did not take of the carb because I already ruined the original copper insert for the fuel line and I did not have anything to catch the fuel from the pump with. I did remove the throttle linkage a few weeks ago so it's WOT (as is the choke).

[Lumpy]

That will work.

 

ken.

[T120]

Basically, it's suck - squeeze - bang - blow.  .Sounds like you may be a little light on the first two...I'd certainly try Lumpy's suggestion.   

[Joe48]

Hallelujah!

It's starting much better now after a drive, and waiting 30 min. before trying to start again. I had to raise the float level and straighten out the adjustment tab, it was set to low and may have been binding a little. So far it's fireing up within 10 sec. Hope this continues thanks everyone for the advice.

[James_Douglas]

This thread has been unsolved for a long time. So I will tell my story from earlier today. My car had been running really good until I went for a drive yesterday. My engine developed a slight irregular misfire with no repeatable pattern. I suspected an issue with adjustment of my dual point setup so the first thing I did was pull my distributor. I set up my bench test using an electric drill, power supply, and test coil. I found a slight variation in dwell angle. I made a very slight adjustment in point gap and corrected that issue. Upon reassembly I discovered what I believe was the real problem. A cold solder joint on the power supply wire from the coil to the distributor as pictured below. I made this cold solder joint recently but I used my small solder gun and not my big iron. So I made up a new wire and corrected that problem.

 

Prior to pulling the distributor I brought the engine to TDC and noted the rotor position. Having made the slight point adjustment and correcting the cold solder joint I re-installed the distributor and positioned it very close to the same position it was in when I removed it. I made an attempt to fire the engine and it was a no go. I made attempts to fire the engine with my remote starter button and a hot wire under the hood while turning the distributor under the hood and it was all a no go. I connected my timing light while cranking the engine with the starter and found my timing was a good way off from TDC. So I brought the engine to TDC using the starter motor. I pulled the plug wire from #1 spark plug and connected it to a spare plug sitting on the head. I then (without spinning the engine) moved the powered up distributor until I was getting spark exactly at TDC correctly static timing the engine.

 

As I had been spinning the engine a lot with no fire I suspected my plugs may be fowled so I removed them and sand blasted them. While the plugs were out I also used an air gun down the plug holes to clear the cylinders of any flooding. Reinstalled the plugs, hit the starter button, and the engine fired right up. I then used my timing light to dial it in.

 

So my point being correct engine timing is a very small window. If you take the time to insure your engine is correctly static timed and all other system problems are corrected the chance of starting is greatly improved.

 

 

 

 

 

I static time all my engines the way Don does every time.  I run a Phillips head screw driver down the hole in # 6 and make sure the crank pointer is really at TDC, then I do as Don does.  Works every time.

 

James

[sorensen_dk]

 Hi Wilf,

 

Long thread......just a couple of comments:

 

1/ Your wet compression numbers look odd having zero improvement and #1 is even worse. Did you get oil into the cylinders?

 

2/ How is your battery doing? You may not have enough voltage on the coil while cranking the engine. I would hook up the coil directly to a separate battery to make sure you have prime spark.

 

3/ As Don Coatney pointed it's essential to get at least get the static timing right.

 

4/ Some times what we say is not what we do. You might snap some video sequences of the trouble shooting and post them.

 

Hope you succeed,

Tom

Edited July 23, 2014 by sorensen_dk

[Wilf DeSoto]

Hi guys,

 

today I finally got the energy and time to work on the DeSoto. I removed the plug of cylinder #6 and tried to find TDC and made a white mark on the pullie. When I tried to start it with a strobe connected I saw that, with the timing still original, the pointer was set on a mark made by a previous owner, about 5 cm before my TDC@#6-mark. Now I tried to play with the timing to get it to TDC. I could not get to TDC with the left screw because I was at the end. But guess what: When spraying some flammable liquid into the carb it did want to fire. So I connected the throttle again and after a few tries it fired up, ran a few seconds, albeit rough, then it shook roughly, violently and was off again. After that I released the other screw on the back of the distributor and turned it all the way to almost TDC. When trying to start I made a mistake by pumping and found out it was flooded again. So I drained the intake (sucked it dry) and tried again, but nothing more.

So I am thinking a few things:

1. I have no idea if the vacuum advancer works; I cannot really move it by hand. I checked it manually when it was on the test bench, there was movement, but then I could handle it easier and maybe in place it's more problematic.

2. I have put it almost on TDC without disconnecting the vacuum advance. Is this an issue..?

3. The flooding (small pool of fuel in the intake) happened, but I don't know exactly how. I have pumped the gas twice or thrice, maybe this was the cause. After sucking it dry I started the car with once again throttle disconnected and watched if I could see gas being sucked in. I did not see gas being sucked in. The idle screw is turned in 1.5 turns.

4. Maybe I should try a revised carb or revise my carb yet again, this time with all the internal parts too. Will this help?

[Merle Coggins]

Based on this you have confirmed that you have spark at the right time. (may need to fine tune later) I believe you are on the right track thinking it's a carburetor issue. Have you tried to open the throttle slightly while attempting to start it? This may help get more air to mix with the fuel in the manifold. Or another shot of your "flammable liquid" down the carb to get it to fire, then work the throttle to see if it'll stay running.

[bbbbbb99]

Sounds like the distributor may be off a tooth or two. TDC should not be at one end of the adjustment range, (I think).

[Don Coatney]

Sounds like the distributor may be off a tooth or two. TDC should not be at one end of the adjustment range, (I think).

??? The distributor is driven by a 2 position tang as pictured below. The only thing that can be off by a tooth or two is the indexing of the oil pump and if you understand how the system works it is possible to properly time an engine irrelevant of indexing. If TDC adjustment is at the end of the range this can be compensated for by shifting the plug wires in the cap to bring it back in range. I explained how to correctly static time the engine in posting #113 of this thread.

 

[Niel Hoback]

Don't worry about the vacuum advance unit until its running. Whether its working or not won't make any difference until its running and you open the throttle about 10 degrees or more. Even then it won't keep it from running.

[DonaldSmith]

" I could not get to TDC with the left screw because I was at the end. "   Is this the minor adjustment? 

 

There is a minor adjustment on the distributor, with a small range for fine-tuning the timing.   But there is also a major adjustment clamp and bolt that allow more rotation of the distributor.  This assumes that the rotor is roughly pointing toward plug wire no. 1 at the top of the compression stroke for cylinder no. 1.

[Don Coatney]

" I could not get to TDC with the left screw because I was at the end. "   Is this the minor adjustment? 

 

There is a minor adjustment on the distributor, with a small range for fine-tuning the timing.   But there is also a major adjustment clamp and bolt that allow more rotation of the distributor.  This assumes that the rotor is roughly pointing toward plug wire no. 1 at the top of the compression stroke for cylinder no. 1.

As seen in the photo I posted in response #136

[Wilf DeSoto]

I had to push the distributor all the way to the right with the screw that screws the distributor on the engine block. That brought me to about 2.5cm before my measured, "ball park" TDC. I had to also screw loose that one on the back to push the distributor even further to the right until it didn't want to go any further, now it's almost but not exactly on the TDC line I made. When marking TDC the hardest thing was that when almost on TDC the movement is very, very small, so being really precise is very hard. I did turn the engine a good few times by hand to get it as accurate as possible. Turning by hand I did by pushing down on the fan, which only works after a small nudge with the starter motor.

[bbbbbb99]

??? The distributor is driven by a 2 position tang as pictured below. The only thing that can be off by a tooth or two is the indexing of the oil pump and if you understand how the system works it is possible to properly time an engine irrelevant of indexing. If TDC adjustment is at the end of the range this can be compensated for by shifting the plug wires in the cap to bring it back in range. I explained how to correctly static time the engine in posting #113 of this thread.

 

Duhhhhh {slaps forehead} I was thinking about my Slant 6. Thanks Don

[desoto1939]

Could there be a possibility that on the breaker plate he is missing the red bakeilte plastic piece that is onthe bottom of the breaker plate where the metal tab sticks out of the dizzy and then the metal breaker plate is grounding out because the wire from the coil attaches to this point?

 

This is just a guess on my part. Also on alot of the old dizzys there was a rubber instert that went intot he opening       and had a slot for the breaker plate to go through it to alos stop the grounding.

 

Check this out also.  Just migt be an issue.

 

Rich HArtung

Desoto1939@aol.com

[Wilf DeSoto]

Hi guys,

 

yesterday, after making the last reply, I went back to my garage and try to start again (with some flammable spray). It stuttered and hurtled but after a few tries it ran! First there was a lot of dark blue smoke, which turned in to a lighter blue smoke, and then all the smoke was gone and it was just idling like old times. I had to twist the distributor all the way to the right though… How about that..?

After it had been running a few minutes I tried to drive it out of the garage. The garage is on private property so I even tried some test rounds. Then I stopped and started a few times to make sure it started up. It did! I then leaned out the idle screw and screwed it out until the engine ran nice, this was 1 full rotation. I made a few test runs on the open road, everything went fine. I went to a gas station, filled it up, started again - just fine.

Then I drove home and tried to start it after it was sitting for a while. Nothing. The starter motor turned very, very slowly and my battery was taking a pounding. I tried to cool off the engine and carburetor with a damp cloth as I thought it was probably flooded and percolating. Still nothing. When removing the air filter I saw there was no flooding, the intake was almost dry. So I pumped the gas a few times, still nothing and the battery sounded nearly dead. Between all these tries were at least 1 minute but mostly more.

As the battery sounded dead I called up a friend with a serious battery charger (Snap-on 6v with Hi and Lo switch) and cycled from my home to my garage where my daily car still was. About a good ten to fifteen minutes later I was back again at the DeSoto as I wanted to try it once more before going to my friend. So I pumped once more and tried it. It first backfired, then the starter engine was picking up a little speed and the engine took over. I could drive again!

I parked my daily at home and went with the DeSoto to my buddy for the battery charger. At his place I turned the car back off. After a while I tried to start but the starter motor was very slow again, but after the second try it did fire up. Then we power charged the battery and from then on starting and stopping the engine was a synch. 

The engine, when giving some gas at idle, seems to dip sometimes (a small stutter) but it does run. I am currently uploading a video of the car so you can see and hear it run.

Now there's this other problem I still got but that's a different story (the tranny that fails to engage properly - I always have to double clutch or it will just rattle)…

[Don Coatney]

Glad you finally got it running. I do think your timing is still too far advanced and that will cause slow cranking.  You mentioned that your distributor is all the way right to the end of adjustment. This can be corrected by moving your plug wires in the cap one hole to the right and then once again static time the engine. You should then be somewhere mid range in distributor adjustment. You also may want to pour a small amount of water down the throat of the carburetor with the engine hot and running at a fast idle. This in effect will steam clean the combustion chambers and remove any carbon deposits that may still be there. After you do that I suggest you remove and clean the spark plugs once again to insure they are not fouled.

 

I bought this plug sand blaster from JC Whitney and it sure comes in handy.

 

[Wilf DeSoto]

The static timing (can I call it static when the vacuum is still attached?) is so close to the stripe I made on the TDC I guesstimated that I think it's pretty close to ballpark. I think that, because I did not have time to fully load the battery after the attempts earlier, the battery had a beating. Even one of the two bridges (the cells on my battery have external bridges) was white from oxidation. But I didn't notice that after it being loaded by the fast loader (30A).

The video is online now, so maybe it's interesting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVYsVulVX6M

Edited August 6, 2014 by Wilf DeSoto

[desoto1939]

I looked at the video of the car running. When the egine was running and you pressed the gas pedal I did notice that the Ammeter needle did not move to the positive.  ALso when you pull ed on your lights does the ammeter move to the discharge side?

 

Not sure may you have an ammeter issue with getting it to run.  Just a guess on my part.

 

Rich HArtung

Desoto1939@aol.com

[pflaming]

Don, that's my problem. I recall now that my friend did that before we started it a couple of years back.  Will get on that tomorrow, church today. 

 

Still hot out here 103 yesterday, but the evap cooler really helps til about 2:00, but then that's 8 hours in the shop.