New guy with 1950 DeSoto - starting issue

[DJ194950]

If you pull the ign. wire out of the dist. cap from the coil and lay the end of that wire close to the block and crank motor over is there a good blue spark? If you do then the timing of the spark is off and follow the ideas about the orientation of the rotor.

 

If not use a test light  one side on the pos. side the other on the neg. post (which end of a test light will not care which) or a meter if you prefer set on continuity. test light will flash at each closing of the points. The meter will show continuity as open and then closed.

If test light is On all the time- there is a short or never light up points Not grounded. . Meter readings will stay the same, either always open or closed.

Check for power at coil and a well grounded coil.

 

Do the points open and close-cap off and cranked?

 

Back to shade tree now!

 

DJ

Edited June 19, 2014 by DJ194950

[_shel_ny]

OP has spark at the plugs with them laying on the engine.

[Don Coatney]

OP has spark at the plugs with them laying on the engine.

Yes but at the right time.

[DJ194950]

Back from the shade for a moment, if he had a setup with a momentary switch connected form the bat. term. of the start relay to the start connection of the starter relay, ( as Don suggested) couldn't he crank it over  with a finger over #1 spark plug hole and the #1 plug wire connected to the dist. and the plug laying on the head within sight as he cranked it over be able to see if that they were somewhat close together- compression and spark? resolve the 180 degree out ?? or just so far out??

 

Back to the shade it's 95 here today.

 

DJ

Edited June 20, 2014 by DJ194950

[meadowbrook]

Hi. Your DeSoto looks almost identical to my 50 Dodge .

On the distributor grease for the lobes, bosch I think makes a distributor lube. I use it on my 65 VW.

[bbbbbb99]

OP has spark at the plugs with them laying on the engine.

  Yeah I noticed that last night when I reread the WHOLE thread.. One thing that is curious though is the stalling that he spoke about before the pulling of the dist. Still sounds like a resistance problem in wiring or a bad coil to me. As the already corroded wire heats it it creates even more resistance???

 

Mystery

[_shel_ny]

  Yeah I noticed that last night when I reread the WHOLE thread.. One thing that is curious though is the stalling that he spoke about before the pulling of the dist. Still sounds like a resistance problem in wiring or a bad coil to me. As the already corroded wire heats it it creates even more resistance???

 

Mystery

I would have to reread, which I did a couple of times, but I think the stalling, and performance problems were before new stuff went into the dizzy, and before, or along with the flooding problems

[Merle Coggins]

A few years ago my truck began acting much like how he described his car's performance before the work. On my truck I found that the points gap had shrunk enough to greatly alter the timing and coil performance. After a tune up all was good again.

 

I've never had any luck putting a distributor back in "the exact same spot" from where it came out. Plus, replacing the points and such alters the timing anyway. Without putting a timing light on to see where it's set you're shooting in the dark. In my opinion you REALLY need to find the timing marks on your damper/pulley and put a timing light on while cranking to see where the timing is set.

 

Merle

[greg g]

Did I read in one of your posts that you have found the points open when you removed the dist cap?  If so this is unusual as when you shut the engine off it usually stops rotating before the next compression stroke and therefore the points should, in about 90% of the circumstances, be on the flat of the dist cam and closed.  Just a thought.  Make sure your gap is set at the high point of the cam and are fully closed on the flats.

[52b3b Joe]

A few years ago my truck began acting much like how he described his car's performance before the work. On my truck I found that the points gap had shrunk enough to greatly alter the timing and coil performance. After a tune up all was good again.

 

I've never had any luck putting a distributor back in "the exact same spot" from where it came out. Plus, replacing the points and such alters the timing anyway. Without putting a timing light on to see where it's set you're shooting in the dark. In my opinion you REALLY need to find the timing marks on your damper/pulley and put a timing light on while cranking to see where the timing is set.

 

Merle

 

I just read this entire thread, and I agree. To me it sounds like the timing is off. No matter what I do when I take a distributor out and put it back in, I always have to re-time it. Even on my truck engine, I had one heck of a time getting it to start for the first time because the timing was off. It didn't pop or fire or give any signs of life until I got very close on the timing. Its very frustrating when you think you have it right, you double, triple, and however many times you check everything and think its all right and then figure out it was just something as simple as the timing. 

 

Wilf:

Now if it were me, I'd replace the coil and condenser to eliminate that (and they are pretty in-expensive, and a spare never hurt), re-gap or at-least re-check the gap on the points, then try to start it while slightly moving the distributor first with the minor adjustment and if that doesn't work the major adjustment. Keep a note of where you started in case it still isn't running as a starting point for later. Also make sure the condenser wire isn't grounding out in the distributor. Look for bare spots in the insulation. I know its VERY frustrating, but it will be worth it when it comes back to life. I've been there more times than I'd like to admit, so I know the pain! Keep at it, you'll get it no matter what it is!!!

[_shel_ny]

OP has spark at the plugs with them laying on the engine

 

Says he has good spark, so points are opening and closing

 

Says he has good spark, so coil appears to be good, condenser appears to be good, and no shorting in the distributor

[Wilf DeSoto]

I would have to reread, which I did a couple of times, but I think the stalling, and performance problems were before new stuff went into the dizzy, and before, or along with the flooding problems 

 

Yup, my bet is that the previous problems were with flooding / vapor lock as they were always occurring during traffic jams, while standing at a traffic light or at a gas station. I do have the heat shield in place at the fuel pump though. The rough idling after long drives are probably more related to the current non-start-problem.

 

I've never had any luck putting a distributor back in "the exact same spot" from where it came out. Plus, replacing the points and such alters the timing anyway. Without putting a timing light on to see where it's set you're shooting in the dark. In my opinion you REALLY need to find the timing marks on your damper/pulley and put a timing light on while cranking to see where the timing is set.

 

Merle

 

Before removing the distributor I spinned the engine by hand to the opening of the gap on cylinder one (this also explains why for user greg g). Then I made marks with a flat thin screwdriver and with a paint marker (screw driver in case the paint would wipe off). I marked the exact position of the nuts, bolts, cap, wires… everything. After replacing everything I made sure I already put the distributor back to the opening gap of cylinder 1 before putting it back. It almost immediately slided right in. A turn by hand of the engine made sure it was in place. That's why I know it was back in place.

A timing light will leave me exactly nowhere since previous owners have removed the damper/pulley a few times and put it back shifted a few times too. So there are several markings on it that make absolutely no sense and there is no factory marking in sight.

 

I just read this entire thread, and I agree. To me it sounds like the timing is off. No matter what I do when I take a distributor out and put it back in, I always have to re-time it. Even on my truck engine, I had one heck of a time getting it to start for the first time because the timing was off. It didn't pop or fire or give any signs of life until I got very close on the timing. Its very frustrating when you think you have it right, you double, triple, and however many times you check everything and think its all right and then figure out it was just something as simple as the timing. 

 

Wilf:

Now if it were me, I'd replace the coil and condenser to eliminate that (and they are pretty in-expensive, and a spare never hurt), re-gap or at-least re-check the gap on the points, then try to start it while slightly moving the distributor first with the minor adjustment and if that doesn't work the major adjustment. Keep a note of where you started in case it still isn't running as a starting point for later. Also make sure the condenser wire isn't grounding out in the distributor. Look for bare spots in the insulation. I know its VERY frustrating, but it will be worth it when it comes back to life. I've been there more times than I'd like to admit, so I know the pain! Keep at it, you'll get it no matter what it is!!!

I will try to shift the timing again today by finding the TDC of cylinder 6 and seeing if the gap is open right then. Should it be just opening or fully open? The coil should be fine, it measured out quite good (resistance) and the spark looks fine too. I have to add this: After removing the original distributor I noticed that the internal cable running through the housing to the coil had worn down insulation. This could have been a big problem of course. I replaced the wire by a new one with heat shrink insulation around the terminals to make sure the new one would in no way shorten out. I also replaced the external wire (going from the terminal of the distributor to the coil) since that one was a bit worn too.

Thanks again for all the replies, they help me a lot and give moral support too. I'm going to the DeSoto now to try them out.

[Wilf DeSoto]

Short update: definitely not 180 degree off: intake valve of 6 goes up after rotor passes 1, then closes before rotor goes to 6. That would not happen in the exhaust stroke.

[Wilf DeSoto]

I just put a plastic probe stick in cyl 6 and when TDC the gap is open on the rotor @ 6.

[Joe48]

I've got the same problem very similar compression readings don't know what the heck it could be can't wait to see what you find out should help me too.

[Don Coatney]

Short update: definitely not 180 degree off: intake valve of 6 goes up after rotor passes 1, then closes before rotor goes to 6. That would not happen in the exhaust stroke.

 

How do you know the intake valve goes up?

[Wilf DeSoto]

I turned the distributor as far as I could to the right so the points open later, I thought a retarded ignition is maybe easier..? Still no pop.

I just changed out the original coil with one I got from someone who converted his 1950 Pontiac L8 to 12 volt. This coil sounds watery when shaking while mine does not make a sound when shaking. This coil also makes no difference.

[Wilf DeSoto]

How do you know the intake valve goes up?

That's the visible valve when removing the spark plug.

[greg g]

You mentioned the internal wires in the distributor.  It likely wound not prevent a start, but a too stiff wire going to the points from the coil connection, will prevent the free movement of the breaker plate upon which the point are mounted.  This could effect the workings of the both the mechanical and vacuum advance.

[jeffsunzeri]

I believe you will find that your compression is just too weak. 60 PSI is the lower limit that you would want to ever see, and you're below that. You will probably find that the engine will start in a push-start situation at maybe 5-10 mph in 2nd or 3rd gear, or perhaps under ether with a fast spinning starter.

Time to overhaul that motor.

[Wilf DeSoto]

Okay, it does make sense probably… My good friend / mechanic also told me to adjust the valves first, then go on from there.

[Joe48]

The engine in my DeSoto has low compression too about 55 to 70 and has a lot of blow-by the valves are good so I'm sure it's the rings but it does eventually start and runs good but then takes forever trying to start again after it had been running . With a fully charged battery it will start up eventually after 3 or 4 long crankings but I'm sure this is hard on the starter and drains down the battery. And sometimes it will restart on the first try, holding the starter for 15 seconds or more. Hope one of us can find a solution.

[Joe48]

I guess I'm just hoping its not the low compression that's the problem I really don't want to even think about having to pull the engine out & getting it rebuilt again.

[Don Coatney]

Five second starter bursts are what I consider long. And after the five second burst I wait 15 seconds before I hit it again. Anything longer heats the starter motor and the hotter it gets the less voltage goes to the ignition. I cringe when I hear folks grind away on the starter motor until the battery goes flat.

[greg g]

Joe when you have the hard start problem, have you ever looked at the base of the carburetor and or top of the intake manifold.  Sounds like you are struggling with a percolation flooded engine.  Next time, slowly depress the gas pedal to the floor and hold it there while cranking the starter.  If that works, look at lowering your float level by a couple 32nds of an inch.  This gas we have do day does not well tolerate high under hood conditions.  It expands, overflows the float bowl.  If the base of the carb is wet, it is from raw fuel leaking out of the throttle butterfly pivots. Lowering the float will create a bit more space for the fuel to expand into before it overflows.