40desoto Posted January 7, 2014 Report Posted January 7, 2014 My engine had been rebuilt over 5 years ago and had never been turned. I opened up the head and oil pan to inspect and everything was fresh no sign of debris, etc.. I filled with oil about 2 weeks ago and attempted to turn by hand but was very difficult (Ive never turned one of these motors by hand before). I let is sit for a couple of weeks before I researched more on how to get the pump primed and engine oiled before I start the engine. Last night I was messing around with the different bellhousing/flywheel/starter combinations on the engine to see if the starter and flywheel meshed correctly . I connected the started and quickly engaged it and the engine turned about 1 full revolution. I removed the sparkplugs and began turning it by hand and it was a lot easier with the plugs off (I though the plugs where the reason it was easier) As I continued turning by hand I noticed that the distributor was not turning. I removed the distributor and noticed that the oilpump was also not turning. I removed the oil pump and noticed that two teeth on the oil pump where cracked and the oil pump was seized and would not turn with a lot of torque. Would an oil pump seize this bad from sitting inside an engine this long? Wow! big mistake by not removing and inspecting the oil pump... or bigger no no by turning the engine with the starter before priming by turning by hand? What else should I check that could of broke before I install a new pump? I have an old pump from my old engine. Is there a way to just swap the gear drive? Quote
Young Ed Posted January 7, 2014 Report Posted January 7, 2014 I've heard of this lately. I believe one of the manufacturers had a bad batch and they were like that even when new. I would order a new one and inspect it carefully before installing. Hopefully there is enough assembly lube that your 1 revolution didn't harm anything. Quote
40desoto Posted January 7, 2014 Author Report Posted January 7, 2014 I hope this doesnt sound like a stupid question but what would be the difference between one revolution manually or one revolution by the tap of the starter? I know I can answer my own question... 'I wouldnt of broke the tooth if spun manually' but lets say that the oil pump spun as intended.. would there be a difference? Quote
Plymouthy Adams Posted January 7, 2014 Report Posted January 7, 2014 this is the exact condition I told you about on chat last night and knew this would be what you would find....this is unfortunately been a common problem..do return this pump to the supplier for a replacement or a refund...do prime the new pump on install by hand.... Quote
Dodgeb4ya Posted January 7, 2014 Report Posted January 7, 2014 Now on to the cam drive gear inspection! Quote
40desoto Posted January 7, 2014 Author Report Posted January 7, 2014 (edited) Soaked the stuck pump in some pb blaster for a couple of hours and broke free. It was rusted stuck on the top where rotor is. I also compared it to the pump from my 250 desoto engine and the rotor seemed quite different compared to the rotor in the 230 Plymouth engine. The rounder design on the 230 didn't seem like would spin as smoothly and the rotor had a tighter fit. Anyone know what the difference on the two types is? The one on the left is from a 250 desoto motor on the right is from 230 Edited January 7, 2014 by 40desoto Quote
Dave72dt Posted January 7, 2014 Report Posted January 7, 2014 If I had to make a guess, I'd say pump volume. Difference in effort to turn can be attributed to several things such as how tight the shaft is in the housing, surface area of the geroters in the housing and how much clearance they have between each other and the housing. Quote
Plymouthy Adams Posted January 7, 2014 Report Posted January 7, 2014 or............as the man said above....the mere fact it was totally rusted fast within the pump on disassembly... Quote
40desoto Posted January 7, 2014 Author Report Posted January 7, 2014 (edited) I cleaned and lubricated them both really good then spun them by hand and noticed that the one with the rounder lobes (on the right) seems to tighten up when the lobe hits the outside ring to spin it. The one on the left spins more freely and spins the outside ring without much tension. Im assuming because the one on the left has a smoother taper on the lobes? It just seems like a much better design Im wondering if anyone has used one with the design on the right? What Im afraid of is that the one on the right seems more likely to jam like it did before. I will look into posting a video to better explain. Edited January 7, 2014 by 40desoto Quote
Dave72dt Posted January 7, 2014 Report Posted January 7, 2014 It could be the one that turns easier is closer to being worn out or the one that turns harder has some rough spots in it. What are the individual clearance specifications for each pump and what are the clearances on each pump. That's part of the inspection process. Knowing what you're supposed to have and knowing what you do have. Quote
40desoto Posted January 7, 2014 Author Report Posted January 7, 2014 Thank You all for the info. Ill be dropping the oil pan and inspecting the cam shaft gear. Keeping my fingers crossed. Quote
Niel Hoback Posted January 7, 2014 Report Posted January 7, 2014 Don't forget to take your tooth pickin' magnet with you. Quote
Don Coatney Posted January 7, 2014 Report Posted January 7, 2014 Don't forget to take your tooth pickin' magnet with you. I believe that would be teeth pickin magnet as two teeth are broken. 1 Quote
Young Ed Posted January 7, 2014 Report Posted January 7, 2014 It could be the one that turns easier is closer to being worn out or the one that turns harder has some rough spots in it. What are the individual clearance specifications for each pump and what are the clearances on each pump. That's part of the inspection process. Knowing what you're supposed to have and knowing what you do have. And even after all that I would still be installing a new one. Quote
Don Coatney Posted January 7, 2014 Report Posted January 7, 2014 And even after all that I would still be installing a new one. me too Quote
40desoto Posted January 7, 2014 Author Report Posted January 7, 2014 me too I will be installing a new one. Im just curious as to why the difference in the rotor and cavity. Wondering if one would be the 'so called' high volume pump. Quote
Plymouthy Adams Posted January 7, 2014 Report Posted January 7, 2014 different manufacturer...........for some reason both pumps look to be rather nasty inside....I thought the one that broke the gear was newly installed...just never started the engine since installation... Quote
desoto1939 Posted January 8, 2014 Report Posted January 8, 2014 same question that Ply Admas is asking if the motor was rebuilt 5 years ago and has never been started then why would there be so much junk in the oil pump? I would have thought that the builder would have cleaned the oilpump during the rebuild. Or at least would have removed the cover to inspect it. Something is not correct here. Rich HArtung Desoto1939@aol.com Quote
Dave72dt Posted January 8, 2014 Report Posted January 8, 2014 Lots of definitions for "rebuilt". Depends on the builder's personal definition. Quote
40desoto Posted January 8, 2014 Author Report Posted January 8, 2014 (edited) The Engine came with all paperwork of machine shop work and parts used in the rebuilt. I believe the oil pump is new or had been rebuilt because I did not see any signs of usage on the gear. It looks dirty partly because its a dark picture and I had dipped in in PB blaster for a few minutes. It did have rust that turned darker when PBblaster hit it. Irregardles I am going to replace it. Im still interested in finding out why there is such difference in the rotor design? All the aftermarket and rebuilt kits I see have the rotor like the one pictured on the left. I ran into another stranhge thing last night. On the pump with the broken gear I removed the the pin to remove the gear and its seems like the gear is meshed to the shaft? could this be possible? I was under the assumption that once removing the pin the gear will come off and the shaft would pull right out from the top. Autozone carries the pump and a rebuilt kit. Has anyone had any luck with a rebuilt kit kit or a pump manufactured by Melling? Autozone carries Melling for $133.00 (part# m-37) Napa has Sealed Power for $149.00 (part# SEP 2244160) and Summit carried sealed power for $99.97 (part# 2244160) and offers free shipping on $99.99 online orders. Anyone have any experience between the two. Or any opinion on which to stay away from? has anyone used a rebuilt kit like this one ? http://www.autozone.com/autozone/parts/Melling-Oil-Pump-Kit/1947-Plymouth-Deluxe/_/N-j6sr1Z8zq9c?itemIdentifier=385738_98203_0_5544 Edited January 8, 2014 by 40desoto Quote
Dodgeb4ya Posted January 8, 2014 Report Posted January 8, 2014 Those gears are pressed on fairly tight! Quote
desoto1939 Posted January 8, 2014 Report Posted January 8, 2014 If the NAPA and the Summit have the same pump and use the same number then go for the summit and get free shipping and save some money. As summit if this is a USA made pump or Foreign made pump. Since your existing oil pump broke an failed on you what would you want to rebuild it sin ce everything is internal in the engine block. Go with a new pump and then index it and put on new prelube and install it. Save the time and effort and then you cna have a good feeling that you are good to go. Just my two cents. Rich Hartung desoto1939@aol.com Quote
_shel_ny Posted January 8, 2014 Report Posted January 8, 2014 Outer end of pump points down. You can fill it with oil before installing it to help with the priming. 1 Quote
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