"the steep learning curve " 39 dodge sedan !

[sig]

Ok hi chaps, time to introduce myself due to the impending arrival of my ( by far) biggest project to date.

I´m sig..(thats what they call me) I´m british but have been living in spain for the last 20 years. ex architect turnrd furniture designer making one off contemporary stuff in steel and stainless.

anyway since finding a pile of old custom car magazines in a tip when I was about 8, I´ve always been into classic car design with an edge, hidden speed and tricks with stock externals.

so the problem with spain is that they don´t really have a car culture to speak of. the dictatorship until the mid 70´s meant no-one owned any interesting cars, and therefore there are very few to renovate. The sale pages are full of 2cv´s, old SEAT´s and the odd renault. most of the cool stuff is brought down from france (the citroen DS´s, the strombergs etc), but this is expensive.

so unintentionally one day I looked to see what US ebay had going on and found a 1339 luxury liner sedan within 1 minute, at a price of a 2cv with papers over here!

without too much thought (as is usually my case) I was in touch with the seller and we struck up a working relationship.

anyway long story short, its now mine and sitting in NJ port waiting for the slowboat to barcelona.

this has given me a time frame to figure out exactly what I am in for!.

the floors are riotted out, and the chassis is pretty pitted but I hope saveable. body pieces are all there and the dash is ok. it has the flatty 6 in and 3 on the tree.

unfortuantely the rear bumper is somewhere on a roadside between north carolina and new jersey, during the first part of the voyage 

 

now I have been informing myself and the idea of 80km/h top speed worried me so whilst looking for a rear axle change I happened across a 1988 daimler/ jaguar for 300 €!, working 3.6litre automatic leather interior etc etc.this seemed to be too good a bargain for spares so it was bought a couple of weeks ago and has since been stripped of everything and chopped up waiting the scrap man.

 

you see , its important you all understand, that this is spain, there are no spares for a prewar dodge or a flatty. transport and import charges from the states are stupid, so I´ll be limited to using euro stock . this will be no traditional rebuild, it can´t be..besides being british, my idea of traditional is very different to the american version.

I say this because of all the grief some people get when mentioning engine swaps and the like. In this case is kind of out of neccesity. I hope you all understand (if not agree!)

 

that said, I massively respect all the original features of the car, even if they are wrecked I want to keep it as antique looking as possible to all but the inspecting professional eye.

 

ok so you´ll be wanting to see the specimen in hand

 

these are the pix from the seller, as obviously I havent seen the car yet

 

[sig]

some more..

[sig]

and heres some of the donor parts .....

do you see where I think I´m going with this?, I hope so because I´m not sure yet, depends what I find when the car gets to europe!, should be fun though. in its defense, the jag engine is also a straight 6, and at least its from a quality car and not some silly toyota or something  

 

all thoughts and ideas are welcome please, you guys know a miliion times more than me about all this stuff

 

cheers for now sig

[Merle Coggins]

Welcome to the family, Sig. You've got your work cut out for yourself, but I look forward to seeing the progress. You will certainly have a one of a kind vehicle.

 

Was the bumper not properly attached during the haul from NC to NJ? It looks like you're missing the tail lights and some trim as well.  

 

What's the length of that Daimler engine? Looks like a good option. And since Daimler was part of Chrysler for a while, you're kind of keeping it in the family.

Edited October 27, 2013 by Merle Coggins

[pflaming]

SIg, great find. They will think you are the King when finished. I would suggest you keep the stock drive train at first and fix the body. That will take the most time and the least $$$. It's tedious work but with your metal experience won't be difficult. 

 

I love the horns and  if you are not going to use the hood ornament, I want first chance.

 

Welcome. 

Edited October 27, 2013 by pflaming

[Don Coatney]

Do you plan on converting to front wheel drive?

[Plymouthy Adams]

his pictured setup is nothing near front wheel drive...the project looks to be an exercise in everything Damiler into the ole '39 it appears...this looks like its going to be a very fun adventure...good luck with it..

[sig]

thanks for the welcome folks 

 

I´ll answer some questions., no the rear bumper was tied on with rope or something I think..very annoying but I´ll make another or find something similar I hope., the rear light lenses are theoretically inside the car along with the air blower thing for under the dash (I hope)

 

yes the horns are ace, and the ram will all stay at all costs. and yes it is only polite for the old girl to try and get the flatty going first before tear down. the jag ide is not written in stone but is a good backup if things start to get unfeasible with the original setup. also I beleive they will give me a 6 month window to get the car registered, by which time it should be in its final (ish) state (any engine changes after that will be expensive to re-register)

there will be a lot of "playing by ear" in the first couple of months according to what I find.

the jag engine size ?..its big, i´ll measure it now, I have no idea whether it´ll fit in the (very vertical looking) original engine bay.. I cut the original drive tunnel out of the jag also just in case.

the jag and the dodge have very similar wheelbase and weight. the jag engine is good for 200 hp

 

yep rear wheel drive for sure, I took it out before the tear down and had a lot of tail out action with it on the lanes behind the house

 

by the way merle, I really like the chrysler daimler lateral post rationalisation !. i´ll say from now on that it was an intentional choice 

[Don Coatney]

Blind man here. Sorry for the front wheel reference. I go in Wednesday this wek to evaluate my vision. Everything in my left eye is cloudy. Discovered this when I was in California on the road trip. I believe eye surgery will  be required and I dont look forward to that pun intended.

[Scruffy49]

Interesting choices. Phone up the Armada/NATO base in Rota Andalucia... there was a quite decent American vehicle salvage yard on the base when I was stationed there in the mid 90s. Everything from little CB350 Honda motorcycles through Kenworth tractor trailers.

 

Good luck.

[sig]

the daimler engine will need at least 75cm in width (29.5 inches) assuming air intake is rejigged and all the other bottles etc are hidden elsewhere.

minimum depth from fan to bulkhead around 1m (39 inches)

and width from wheel bolts to wheel bolts at the front is 145cm 57 inch

and 153 at the back ??(weird could be wrong) 60 inch

 

does anyone happen to have a tape measure and a 39 dodge on hand?? (in my minds eye you all have huge barns with 5 or 6 project dodge and plymouths in!! )

I would love to know the width from inner wing to inner wing, and the rear axle width (to the wheel fixtures)

 

cheers if possible  sig

[sig]

Interesting choices. Phone up the Armada/NATO base in Rota Andalucia... there was a quite decent American vehicle salvage yard on the base when I was stationed there in the mid 90s. Everything from little CB350 Honda motorcycles through Kenworth tractor trailers.

 

Good luck.

ooohhh ! thats interesting to know, there is a link between dodge and spain in that apparently spain produced the dodge dart in the 60´s..thats as far as my knowledge of the subject goes, there is a dodge club here but for 60´s stuff..so not much use

[Scruffy49]

So you've been to my farm? Except my "toys" aren't all Mopar... 72 VW Super beetle lowrider, 49 Dodge truck lowrider, 69 Dodge truck pasture art, 87 Chevy C60, 85 Chevy C10 short wide box, 92 and 94 Ford rangers, 68ish D400 based motorhome (M400 chassis), 63 and 71 Honda Scrambler motorcycles, 1937 Schwinn Henderson bicycle...

 

Some of them even live in the barn...

[sig]

you see !! that is the typical barn !!!! hahaha 

nice schwinn..I used to make my own lowrider bikes before the kids were born

[greg g]

Well this will certainly be an interesting combination if it can be put together.  Was the Jag/Daimler a Unibody car?  If so did you save the sub frames (cradles or "K" frames) from the doner car??  If not how do you intend to mount the engine trans and rear end?  The engine compartment in the Dodge was built to accommodate an engine that is 23.5 inches long at the block.  The pulleys and water pump and fan ad about 5 inches more.

 

the motor mounts at the front through a plate suspended from a Floating Power isolator bolted above the water pump.  At the rear the bellhousing was mounted either to the frame rails or to a crossmember riveted to the frame.  I can't remember how the 39 was configured.  The trans mission then hangs off that bellhousing.   Fabricating the mounts fo the independent rear suspension is going to be a interesting if not daunting fabrication feat.  Your experience with steel and stainless steel may just stand you in good stead on that account.  I will be interesting to see how you approach that adaption.  1939 in the US was a year when it seemed that a lot of American Auto makers experimented with heal lamp shapes, and assemblies.  You have very unique headlamps on that vehicle which are comprised of lens, reflector bucket and changeable bulb.  There was just a post here regarding the part number and source for those bulbs.  It looks like you reflectors will need re silvering if you will be keeping to essential bits of the cars styling.  I wish you well with your project ad welcome to the forum.  With your work with stainless, perhaps you can fabricate a nice rear bumper that fits the car.  

[GlennCraven]

I also want to welcome you and say "good luck with the car." That'll be a nice ride when you're finished, whether stock engine or the Jag.

[greg g]

I forgot to mention the stock steering box.  It seems to be a factor in many engine swaps as it is mounted inside the frame rails and not easily moved unless you are contemplating using the steering from the JAG also.  The most common practice here is to adjust the engine to the passenger side by an inch or so.  Even the factory did this when they put V8's in the Smaller A body cars (Darts and Valiants) I think you might need to message the fire wall to make room for that motor.  By the way a Steel Wheel borrow body sometimes suits well as a piece that can help you create space and fill in the opening created.

[sig]

hmmm ! so it looks like the engine bay is only 29inches from radiator to bulkhead  and I need 10 inches more. I wanted to try the feasibility of reusing the lovely big dodge radiator but the jag radiator is only about 1.5 inches thick so I can gain some space there...its gonna be tricky. the width is what bothers me most, will I need to loose the inner wings?

 

yes the jag was a unibody, the trans was spring mounted to a fancy crossmember fixed to the tunnel (which I have), and the IRS need 2 laser cut pads welded to the frame somehow, but there are only 6points of contact so should be easy enough to rig up. the drive shaft is a 2 x UJ piece also so that´ll help.

 

I just hope I can reuse as much of the original chassis as possible ( I love the x frame detail) but I hope Its not past its sell by date!!

 

I have the steering set up also just in case, but the steering wheel and controls need to stay original ofcourse. which will be interesting !!!the speedo cable for example ??

[greg g]

Two inches are easily gained by mounting the radiator to the front of the support so you may be able to save the original.  It will surely have the capacity to cool the new motor.  The other issue at the front is the frame cross member that carries the front suspension. One of our members solved this on his engine swap by notching the piece and the welding in a section of pipe to clear his lower crankshaft pulley.

Edited October 27, 2013 by greg g

[Plymouthy Adams]

NO loss of inner wings...these panels will however be better reshaped to fit the outline of the new engine when transplanted..they are easily reshaped and welded to be as serviceable as when new with the flathead about you bigger new engine.  Recessing the firewall and moving the radiator forward of the radiator support is a quick way to pick up space but I still believe the larger Jag engine to be a bit long for this application...nothing is impossible..but often is it worth it may be the real question.  Having put a number of later model V8 and v6's in these old cars it is a process and not readily able to go back stock once the cutting starts..do measure well many time.  I have the 41 Luxury liner which is the basic same animal as yours with a Mopar big block, 727 and later model rear gear. all the bells ans whistle of a more modern car including AC etc..plenty of room under the hood for this beast...the inner wings (fenders to the yanks here) again are easily refitted to your engine contours...and in my book a needed must to ensure that the air flow through the radiator will be enhanced and no just pulling air from the side of an open bay....

[Jim Wilson]

Sig, there is a 1941 Dodge convertible here in Bellingham, Washington that has a Jag engine in it. If I remember correctly it is mounted on a Chevrolet sub frame. Unfortunately the owner passed away recently at age 80, but his widow still has the car, and it should be available for measurements and photos. Also, there is a 1939 Dodge sedan like yours here locally and, finally, I have a 1939 Plymouth convertible which I believe has engine compartment dimensions similar to the 1939 Dodge. So, between the three cars, I can probably get some information that would be helpful for your project. Let me know what you need.

Jim Wilson 

[wayfarer]

thanks for the welcome folks 

. the jag ide is not written in stone but is a good backup if things start to get unfeasible with the original setup. also I beleive they will give me a 6 month window to get the car registered, by which time it should be in its final (ish) state (any engine changes after that will be expensive to re-register)

 

by the way merle, I really like the chrysler daimler lateral post rationalisation !. i´ll say from now on that it was an intentional choice 

If re- registration is such a major pain in the rear then it sounds like the Jag route needs to be the focus if that is the intended goal. As good as the original drivetrain might be you would be doing everything twice if you spend any time attempting to run the flathead. And, with a six month limit you might need all of the time available to get the swap to a point acceptable to your 'dmv'.

I am a fan of the Jag/Daimler six so am watching this thread closely!

[sig]

ooooohhh! this forum is the best..already!   jim ! err I don´t know, anything ! everything!..any info would be great its very frustrating not having the car here total width at the rear arches would be useful for the rear axle and wheel choices. and basically any fotos at all, cheers in advance!

plymouthy adams, I think I´ve just found some pix of your plymouth, looks great do you have a build thread on it?

[sig]

wayfarer, there are disadvantages in using the jag set up, basically its a very complex car. I have everything still, the loom was taken out intact and its full of extras that I really don´t need or want, electric roof, mirrors, windows, central locking, ride stabilizer, headlight washers! , auto ride control and all that rubbish. at the moment I have no idea how to do what I would need to do to reinstall it ...I have a manual!...but it is all a bit scary.

also the rear diff has a bad reputation for eating bearings, however mine seems to be ok so far, it has 60000km on the clock

 

all this preliminary stuff is a big feasibility study..it is also very nice to know that people will back me either way, as I doubt i would be capable of this project without a decent forum behind me

[Plymouthy Adams]

quote in part....

 

plymouthy adams, I think I´ve just found some pix of your plymouth, looks great do you have a build thread on it?

 

I have a complete build thread on my own computer in chronological order, daily progress of work done, modification and their sources, special parts list and updated schematics of the build itself, torque curve of the engine and all other pertinent facts....complete with hundreds of pictures..but I have not posted a build thread nor do I intend to...but I do post pics to show a HOW DID if someone else is working a similar area as a possible solution..