53 plymouth engines?

[53cranny]

Hello, I'm currently rebuilding a 53 plymouth cranbrook and have been tossing around some ideas for the engine, I would like to keep it mopar and would also love to keep it a flathead (my 218 is in pretty rough shape) but I've been told they are pretty gutless. what would you all suggest for an engine. as a general idea I'm not looking for a tire burner just something that's reliable and I can cruise at a good highway pace with.

Also with changing the engine what transmissions would either bolt up or work with minor mods? I'd like to keep it a manual. I'm also curious on space, the 218 sits pretty close to the firewall as it is, would a small block fit just as snug or would I need to reform the firewall?? any suggestions are greatly appreciated!!!

thanks everyone,

Kerry

[Reg Evans]

Hello, I'm currently rebuilding a 53 plymouth cranbrook and have been tossing around some ideas for the engine, I would like to keep it mopar and would also love to keep it a flathead (my 218 is in pretty rough shape) but I've been told they are pretty gutless. what would you all suggest for an engine. as a general idea I'm not looking for a tire burner just something that's reliable and I can cruise at a good highway pace with.

thanks everyone,

Kerry

Well....if what you want is a reliable non tire burning engine I'd say stick with the flattie. If you want to keep up with traffic these days on the freeway then all ya really gotta do is install a more freeway friendly set of rear end gears. I'll let the rest of the group tell you how.

[greg g]

Lots of ideas on this forum, use the search featur and use key words like 5 speed, T 5. 230, dual carbs, mill, compression ratio, exhaust, headers, rear end, differential, jeep, ranger, explorer. You will come up with a lot of reading. Also use the return to P15 D24 button on the left side of the header tool bar, lots of reading there. Lots of folks have done lots of stuff to stock engines, modified engines, swapping in Desoto and Chrysler flathead engines etc.

I have a bored, milled, dual carbed 1956 Plymouth Flathead in my 46 Bus Coupe. It has served me reliably, keeps up with traffic, is fairly economical to use, and has been on several long road trips.

Keep in mind you are dealing wih a long stroke, low compression, low tech egine that doesn't like to rev, but makes a lot of torque under ormal driving conditions.

So read what's here, do some planning and keep in touch.

[Rusty O'Toole]

You have been misinformed. The stock engine has plenty of power for all practical purposes. I know guys who rebuilt their engines and planned to install overdrive, different rear axle gears etc. but once they tried a flatty that ran right, they lost all desire to modify their cars.

The flathead Chrysler products will continue to run in an advanced state of wear and disrepair. They don't make a lot of noise or fuss about it. This seduces the owner into thinking all is well when the engine is seriously down on power.

There is another angle on this. The long stroke engine, with accompanying high torque, does its work easily and will slow down to a walking pace then pull away in high gear. This makes the car easy and pleasant to drive, even though on paper it doesn't have enoug power for a riding lawn mower.

So, my first suggestion is to tune up your motor and try it out. If you are not satisfied, do a compression test and take note of the oil pressure. A vacuum gauge can tell you a lot about an engine too.

If the engine is worn, do an overhaul or a rebuild as necessary and chances are, you will be happy with your car.

You are in luck in another way. In case the stock engine is not powerful enough for you (some people are never satisfied lol) the fact that you have a Canadian car is in your favor. Chrysler of Canada only made one engine in those days, and the engine in your car is in fact a detuned Chrysler. So if you want, you can swap in a Chrysler or DeSoto flathead six of up to 265 cu in and 120HP.

If even that is not enough it is possible to hop up the engine and get enough power to burn rubber away from every light.

Seriously though, the stock engine will keep up with traffic and cruise at up to 60 with no problems, with a top speed of 85 to 90.

[Rusty O'Toole]

Take a test drive in an original unrestored 53 Cranbrook.

[greg g]

Here are a few videos from this spring of my car before its tune up.

http://www.dailymotion.com/user/plym_46/1

[T120]

..Good videos,Greg -I'll warm up my stock Dodge tomorrow and check out the time from 30-50 mph in 3rd.I may not post the results.

Edited September 10, 2011 by Ralph D25cpe
added text

[Plymouthy Adams]

my 54 Plymouth 230 with automatic surprised me..it will bark rubber from a stop..run out to about 53 in lo before shifting into high..at 75 it is quiet and smooth with plenty of roll on power on tap..I do admit to having a 3.73 rear gear as an added bonus..(stock for the 54 automatic) now Louman held the foot down a bit more and got a higher shift point than myself..but I guess that had a lot to do with not being his car...lol only thing I need to do now is get off my butt and mount the new WWW's

[B-Watson]

Hello, I'm currently rebuilding a 53 plymouth cranbrook and have been tossing around some ideas for the engine, I would like to keep it mopar and would also love to keep it a flathead (my 218 is in pretty rough shape) but I've been told they are pretty gutless. what would you all suggest for an engine. as a general idea I'm not looking for a tire burner just something that's reliable and I can cruise at a good highway pace with.

Also with changing the engine what transmissions would either bolt up or work with minor mods? I'd like to keep it a manual. I'm also curious on space, the 218 sits pretty close to the firewall as it is, would a small block fit just as snug or would I need to reform the firewall?? any suggestions are greatly appreciated!!!

thanks everyone,

Kerry

I suspect your 1953 Plymouth Cranbrook is Canadian, so you do have a 218-cid flathead six, 25" block, and not the 23" 230-cid everyone is talking about.

If you want to switch to another engine, you should have no problems. A V8 engine is shorter than the Chryco flathead six, as would any V6 engine. Chrysler did stuff a V8 into that short front clip for 1953-54 Dodge Coronet/Royal hardtops, convertibles, and wagons which were on the same 114" wheelbase as your Cranbrook.

If your car was built after March, 1953, you should have a 228-cid six. Cranbrook models switched to the 228 engine at engine number P24-2-8322-C. The engine number is stamped into the block, left side, up front, just below the head.

No need to worry about power. You won't burn rubber but you will be able to cruise at the 90 or 100 Km/hr limits in BC.

[Rusty O'Toole]

There is a problem putting a V8 or V6 in a pre 1955 Plymouth. The engine compartment is only made for a 6 and is too narrow for a V8 or V6. Steering clearance is the biggest problem.

But, the stock engine should do fine and if you really want to go nuts the big Chrysler flathead six will bolt in.

[ButchsCoolStuff]

There is a problem putting a V8 or V6 in a pre 1955 Plymouth. The engine compartment is only made for a 6 and is too narrow for a V8 or V6. Steering clearance is the biggest problem.

But' date=' the stock engine should do fine and if you really want to go nuts the big Chrysler flathead six will bolt in.[/quote']

Hey Rusty, I agree that the old Flathead 6's are a great engine, but I have personally installed many Small Block Chryslers into many different 1928 thru 1954 Plymouths and Dodge cars. Man, if we can put Big Block Chryslers (426 Wedge into my '31 Ply PA Sedan) in them we can sure install small blocks into them. GEEEEEEEEEEEEEZE!

We, here at Butch's Cool Stuff (formerly Butch's Rod Shop 1975-1999) manufacture, our own design, kits for most all MOPARs. They all come with good, clear, illustrated instruction sheets and all hardware required. Yes, it takes a little thought to clear the stock steering in the 39/54 cars, but it can easily be done. Hope I have helped. Butch at www.butchscoolstuff.com .

[Rusty O'Toole]

I didn't say it was impossible, I said it needed a lot of work and thought. I have personally helped install a 318 into a 37 Dodge coupe and a 440 into a 39.

Here's a secret, a Chev V8 will fit in with half the work. I could not believe it until I tried, the Chev has way more room than the Chrysler small block.

If you want to make it all Chrysler the newer mini starter makes a big difference.

The original question was from a guy who was told by some ignoramus that his original motor was too slow and he had to put a V8 in to keep up with traffic. That is **************.

He will be a lot better off with the original motor. A lot of decent old cars have ended up in the junkyard because someone tackled an engine swap he couldn't complete, or some other major project.

Edited September 10, 2011 by Rusty O'Toole

[Frank Elder]

He will be a lot better off with the original motor. A lot of decent old cars have ended up in the junkyard because someone tackled an engine swap he couldn't complete' date=' or some other major project.[/quote']

Rregardless of what you've said or done this is his car, and you don't know his capabilities are......:confused:How do you know what is best for him?

Just curious.

[B-Watson]

There is a problem putting a V8 or V6 in a pre 1955 Plymouth. The engine compartment is only made for a 6 and is too narrow for a V8 or V6. Steering clearance is the biggest problem.

But' date=' the stock engine should do fine and if you really want to go nuts the big Chrysler flathead six will bolt in.

[/quote']

The steering is the problem, not the engine compartment. The 1953-54 Dodge Coronet/Royal hardtops, convertibles and wagons were built on a 114" wheelbase, the same frame as the Plymouth. The 119" wheelbase Dodges used the Plymouth body with an extra 5" in the rear seat area, along with a different front windshield, roof line and rear doors.

But the engine compartment was basically the same size for all Plymouth and Dodge models. Except for the steering. The front tread for all 1953 and 1954 Plymouths and Dodges was just under 56".

Fitting a 383 or 440 may be a problem, but a Dodge V8, A, or LA engine should fit in the engine compartment. Except for the steering.

And, as the car under discussion is a Canadian-built Plymouth, it already has a 25" Chryco block under the hood, so the 251 or 265 engine will slide in no problems. In Canada, the 1955-59 Plymouths and Dodges used the 251 engine, while 1952-54 DeSoto and Chrysler sixes used the 265.

[greg g]

The simple expedient of designing motor mounts that allow moving the engine a couple inches towards the passenger side, and using an up and over exhaust manifold from the MOPAR parts bin. These two considerations usually address the major clearence issues with the stock sterring box.

I believe mother MOPAR used a very similar approach to shoehorning v8 engines in early A body cars.

And when the accessories and other under hood stuff goes back on, the offset is noticable only to a trained eye.

As in any endeavor of this type, carefull measuring and planning and prototyping can overcome the issues involves given enough time, money and fabricating skill.

If it was easy, any one could do it, and we all be driving chevy powered Fords, instead of enjoying our MOPARS.

[Rusty O'Toole]

Rregardless of what you've said or done this is his car, and you don't know his capabilities are......:confused:How do you know what is best for him?

Just curious.

Go back and read the original question.

"I would like to keep it mopar and would also love to keep it a flathead (my 218 is in pretty rough shape) but I've been told they are pretty gutless. what would you all suggest for an engine. as a general idea I'm not looking for a tire burner just something that's reliable and I can cruise at a good highway pace with. "

My answer was keep the original engine and rebuild it. Don't listen to whoever told you they are gutless. A flathead 6 in good condition will do fine.

As an addition to the above answer I also told him that if he has a Canadian made Plymouth (the questioner is from Canada) the bigger DeSoto or Chrysler 6 will bolt right in. So if the original 218 is shot, has the rod sticking thru the block etc, he can upgrade to a more powerful 6 very easily.

All my answers were based on the original question.

[53cranny]

WOW! thanks everyone for the information, I've decided to see if I can get the 218 going at some point (lots of other stuff to do before/during) or see if I can ever find a 230, 251 or 265. something about those old flatheads just turns my crank .

I do appreciate everyones opinions though, sorry if the question was misleading or anything. I know where to come to for my next project if it's a bigger mopar engine and if I don't I know where I'll be going to ask!

Thanks again everyone,

Kerry

...now to get the engine unstuck and reeeally inspect it for damage. Another question, what sort of modifications would I be able to do to a stock 218? What bore size can I go up to, find pistons for, have any of you done anything like that? I haven't seen any cracks in the block or noticed any holes in the cylinder walls yet but I've got some rust to remove before I can make a thorough inspection. I've heard that the walls are quite thin

[53cranny]

Well....if what you want is a reliable non tire burning engine I'd say stick with the flattie. If you want to keep up with traffic these days on the freeway then all ya really gotta do is install a more freeway friendly set of rear end gears. I'll let the rest of the group tell you how.

Thanks thats a great start. any suggestions on the rear end gears? by the sounds of it it may not be necessary if the engine is tuned up properly.

Kerry

[53cranny]

Take a test drive in an original unrestored 53 Cranbrook.

that's an awesome video! is it your cambridge or jsut a video that's rolling around?

[Young Ed]

...now to get the engine unstuck and reeeally inspect it for damage. Another question, what sort of modifications would I be able to do to a stock 218? What bore size can I go up to, find pistons for, have any of you done anything like that? I haven't seen any cracks in the block or noticed any holes in the cylinder walls yet but I've got some rust to remove before I can make a thorough inspection. I've heard that the walls are quite thin

You gotta stop listening to whomever is telling you this stuff I've seen people go up to .080 overbore without issue. You should be able to find pistons up to .060 easily. Both my 218s(the us version) are .030 over and ones even .020 under on the crank and rods due to a bad block cleaning job the first time.

[hkestes41]

I will second what Ed said. My 218 was 0.060 over and there was plenty of wall left.

[greg g]

It has been mentioned before that a 50/50 mix of transmission fluid and acetone makes a good solvent for stuck engines. Pull the head and pour in on top of the pistons. then rather than trying to turn it with the crank, You can use a block of wood and small sledge or dead blow hammer to give the pistons some impact which can be helpfull in breaking the bonds between the pistons/rings and the cuylinder walls.

[Rusty O'Toole]

WOW! thanks everyone for the information, I've decided to see if I can get the 218 going at some point (lots of other stuff to do before/during) or see if I can ever find a 230, 251 or 265. something about those old flatheads just turns my crank .

I do appreciate everyones opinions though, sorry if the question was misleading or anything. I know where to come to for my next project if it's a bigger mopar engine and if I don't I know where I'll be going to ask!

Thanks again everyone,

Kerry

...now to get the engine unstuck and reeeally inspect it for damage. Another question, what sort of modifications would I be able to do to a stock 218? What bore size can I go up to, find pistons for, have any of you done anything like that? I haven't seen any cracks in the block or noticed any holes in the cylinder walls yet but I've got some rust to remove before I can make a thorough inspection. I've heard that the walls are quite thin

Friend of mine is a mechanic and MoPar man from way back. He owns a 71 Hemi Challenger he bought new, plus a few other hot MoPars. He has built more racing 440s, Hemis and others than you can count.

2 or 3 years ago he rebuilt a 1941 Canadian Plymouth engine for a customer. He did a sonic test on the block. He told me it had the thickest cylinder walls of any engine he ever tested.

Engines back then were made to be bored up to 1/8 oversize as part of normal rebuilds. Some could go even farther.

I know the Canadian Dodge and Plymouth sixes had a 3 3/8 bore, but the same block was used in DeSoto and Chrysler with a 3 7/16 bore. If the block casting was the same it suggests the smaller engine can be bored to 3 7/16 + 1/8 or 3 9/16 and still be within factory specs.

So, someone is giving you a load of hooey. Don't listen to their **************.

Vintage Power Wagons has NOS pistons for $75 a set of 6. Or new replacements for $165.

http://www.vintagepowerwagons.com/pdf/parts/01engine.pdf

.................................................................................................

"what sort of modifications would I be able to do to a stock 218? What bore size can I go up to, find pistons for, have any of you done anything like that? "

There are lots of things that can be done depending how far you want to go.

If you are rebuilding the engine anyway you can bore the engine for more displacement. Mill the head for more compression. Install a hotter cam ($165 from Edgy Edgerton). Install a larger carburetor and a larger exhaust pipe and muffler.

These things can be incorporated into a normal rebuild for minimal cost. The result will be a little more power with no outward sign the engine has been modified.

If you really want to go wild there are other things you can do like twin carbs, finned aluminum head, headers and/or dual exhausts .

Of course you already know the larger Chrysler and DeSoto engines will fit right in your car. But the crankshaft and rods will fit your block. This means if your block is good, and you find a Chrysler or DeSoto 251 or 265 cheap but the block is cracked, you can use the crankshaft and rods in your engine.

The secret is Chrysler used just 2 pistons, identical except for size: 3 3/8 for Plymouth and Dodge, 3 7/16 for DeSoto and Chrysler. Then they used different stroke crankshafts for different displacements. They made different length rods to match the crankshaft so they could use standard pistons.

There are other details if you really want to get into it.

For your purpose I suggest a mild engine, close to stock, with maybe a few extra touches as described above.

*Note* the above refers to Canadian made engines, the Detroit made Plymouth and Dodge engines are completely different.

Edited September 12, 2011 by Rusty O'Toole

[Rusty O'Toole]

that's an awesome video! is it your cambridge or jsut a video that's rolling around?

That was a video I found on Youtube. I just wanted to demonstrate that a flathead Plymouth is not the hopeless hunk of junk your uninformed friends seem to think.

There are others on there showing flatheads in action, in various stages of tune.

[Plymouthy Adams]

it is not an issue of hopeless hunk of junk...it is an issue of bang for the buck..lots of folks here are avid rodders..the stock mill even if gold plated is not what they want..most of these folks find it hard to spend 1200 dollars on an engine that though smooth and dependable, with a slight increase in performance way less than what the money will buy on an upgrade. The battle of stock versue rod will always be there..the rodder and purist know every arguement pro and con..but it is ultimately the desire of the owner the direction of the build..if for some reason the rodding twist finds disfavor with you..the forums of the WPC, POC or AACA may be more to your liking..however I find a number of these folks coming here because for the most part these fourm have little to no activity..