hkestes41 Posted July 4, 2011 Report Share Posted July 4, 2011 OK, my new 230 is in went to spin it to get the oil pressure up before starting. It bumped over, then just clicked. Pulled the starter and it spins when power is put to it. Pulled the acess cover from the flywheel and could turn the engine by prying against the flywheel. So, put the starter back in and same thing. Bumped over then clicks. Tried to turn the engine prying on the flywheel and nothing. Pulled the starter engine turns no problem. For grins I put the starter from my 218 on same thing, engine will not turn with the starter bolted on. Any suggestions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Coatney Posted July 4, 2011 Report Share Posted July 4, 2011 Any suggestions? Yes, I have some suggestions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hkestes41 Posted July 4, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2011 Wow, thanks for your enlightening response. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldodge41 Posted July 4, 2011 Report Share Posted July 4, 2011 Are you using the same flywheel? I have read their are different tooth counts on some of the ring gears. Also, some of the crank shaft flanges are of different thicknesses which could cause some binding. Sounds like the starter is binding it up for whatever reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Horne Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 Sounds like you may have the wrong starter/flywheel combination. I have 1956 starters on my 36 engine, and my 56 engine. I believe the 57 or newer will not work on either engine. I pulled the spark plugs on my engine before cranking over a few times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TodFitch Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 How good is the electrical bonding between the ground cable and the engine and the starter and the bell housing? If you have a freshly painted engine you might have paint keeping everything from making a good connection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hkestes41 Posted July 5, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 Are you using the same flywheel? I have read their are different tooth counts on some of the ring gears. Also, some of the crank shaft flanges are of different thicknesses which could cause some binding. Sounds like the starter is binding it up for whatever reason. I am using the starter and flywheel that were on the 230 when I bought it. It does the same with both the 218 and 230 starters. Will crawl under tomorrow and count the teeth on the flywheel. I am using the 218 bellhousing to have the rear motor mounts will have to measure again but they mount the starter in the same location so I don't think that is the issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry Roberts Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 Perhaps your battery only has enough power to spin the starter without a load . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hkestes41 Posted July 5, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 How good is the electrical bonding between the ground cable and the engine and the starter and the bell housing? If you have a freshly painted engine you might have paint keeping everything from making a good connection. The electrical is not what this problem is about. I can't even get the engine to turn manually by prying on the flywheel when the starter is bolted up. When the starter is off the engine it turns over easily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hkestes41 Posted July 5, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 Perhaps your battery only has enough power to spin the starter without a load . Thought the same, tried to jump it with my wife's car. Left the cables on for about 15 minutes and still the same engine bumps then nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldodge41 Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 I am using the starter and flywheel that were on the 230 when I bought it. It does the same with both the 218 and 230 starters. Will crawl under tomorrow and count the teeth on the flywheel.I am using the 218 bellhousing to have the rear motor mounts will have to measure again but they mount the starter in the same location so I don't think that is the issue. Could be the thickness of the crank flange on the 230 and the 218 bellhousing don't work well together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moose Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 Could be the thickness of the crank flange on the 230 and the 218 bellhousing don't work well together. That's kinda what I was thinking. I had a similar issue on my A, but it has a truck bellhousing and a thin 218 crank flange. I had to pull the flywheel off and grind the bell, just in a couple of places and not much, but enough for more clearance. Might be that your pressure plate is touching in a couple places. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hkestes41 Posted July 5, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 If it were interference between the pressure plate or flywheel and the bellhousing woiuld it not cause the engine not to turn regardless of if the starter is bolted on or not? I am using the starter and flywheel that came on the 230 as I have read here that you must use the 230 starter due to the position of the flywheel when bolted to the flange. The 230 starter is a bit longer fromt he mounting surface to the snout end when placed side by side with the 218 starter. That is why I tried with the 218 starter as well. With either one as soon as I bolt the starter on the engine will not turn even by prying on the flywheel. Take the starter off and I can pry the flywheel and it turns rather easily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg g Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 Is one of the starter bolts too long??? going through the behhousing and then coming into contact with the flywheel causing enough frictin to act as a brake??? IS there any interference and or binding when you slide the starter into position?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hkestes41 Posted July 5, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 Is one of the starter bolts too long??? going through the behhousing and then coming into contact with the flywheel causing enough frictin to act as a brake??? IS there any interference and or binding when you slide the starter into position?? These are the same bolts I took off my 218 when making the switch and since the 230 flywheel sets further from the starter mating face I don't think the bolts are interfering but will check again. The starter goes right in with no interference when installing. Everything aligns and bolts right in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Coatney Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 Here is a suggestion. Is the gear on your starter motor in the same position as the one pictured below. If not it should be. When you bench tested your starters I suspect the brendix locked in the full out working position. This may cause a binding when installed. The way the bendix works is the gear returns to the home position (as pictured below) once the engine fires and the flywheel speed exceeds the starter motor speed. When bench testing the bendix may lock in the working position and I suspect that is your problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg g Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 Tooth count starter to ring gear compatable? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hkestes41 Posted July 5, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 Did some further investigation. 218 flywheel 146 teeth right at 15 inches in diameter. 218 starter 9 teeth at 3/8 inches tip to tip on adjacent teeth 218 starter gear is 1 1/4 inch diameter roughly 230 flywheel 172 teeth again 15 inches in diameter as best as I can measure it in the car. 230 starter 9 teeth at 5/16 inches tip to tip on adjacent teeth 230 starter gear is right at 1 inch diameter. I would think that the smaller diameter of the starter gear and the teeth on the gear being closer together would make up for the additional 26 teeth on the flywheel. Which brings me to the photo posted by Don, it looks like maybe both my starters have the bendix locked in the full out position based on this photo of them side by side (218 on left). With both I can push back on them toward the body of the starter and they will move back but feel spring loaded and return to the extended position when I let go. How do I get them to return to the "home" position? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 me thinks the 230 was a 12 volt 57 up starter and ring..they had a few extra teeth..you probably half way to the fix.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hkestes41 Posted July 5, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 me thinks the 230 was a 12 volt 57 up starter and ring..they had a few extra teeth..you probably half way to the fix.. Tim, I am running 12V now. Do you mean that the 57 230 starter had more than 9 teeth? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 (edited) now sure of the bendix tooth count..only that the ring gear count is greater...I have but one stater here that is 12 volts on a 58 D100...I have not counted the teeth..but the main thing I see difference in your set up is not so much the count but the diameter..that itself will change the pitch of the teeth even with the same tooth count.. Edited July 5, 2011 by Tim Adams Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hkestes41 Posted July 5, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 Bolted the starter back in place and the teeth on the starter gear are meshing with the teeth on the flywheel as soon as it is bolted on. If I use a screwdriver to push the bendix back against the spring (toward the starter body) then I can turn the flywheel with another screwdriver. So it look like either the bendix is not retracting to the "home" position or the starter extends too far into the bellhousing. from the bellhousing mating face for the starter to the front face of the ring gear is 1 9/16. Does anyone have easy access to one that they can measure for comparrison? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james curl Posted July 6, 2011 Report Share Posted July 6, 2011 Take your starter over to your bench grinder with the wire wheel. Check which way the starter turns, then start the bench grinder and place the bendix on the wire brush to turn it the same direction as the starter turns and that is like the engine starting and overrunning the bendix to make it return to the at rest position. Have watched the people at the starter shop return the bendix to the at rest position by doing just what I told you to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moose Posted July 6, 2011 Report Share Posted July 6, 2011 So it look like either the bendix is not retracting to the "home" position or the starter extends too far into the bellhousing. from the bellhousing mating face for the starter to the front face of the ring gear is 1 9/16. Does anyone have easy access to one that they can measure for comparrison? I don't have a measurement for you, but I've had a non retracting bendix before too. Go to your hardware store and look through the spring section, you know the little drawers, and find a light compression spring that will fit around the shaft(maybe it's 1/2"). Pull your starter apart and take the snout off, then slip a couple of coils on the shaft. It took care of a starter that stayed engaged for me a few years ago. That was on my daily, and I don't think I ever had to bother with that again. That was probably the starter I sold the car with. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Coatney Posted July 6, 2011 Report Share Posted July 6, 2011 (edited) How do I get them to return to the "home" position? I am not sure how to do that. Hopefully someone will chime in with that knowledge. Looks like James Curl already chimed in before I posted this. Edited July 6, 2011 by Don Coatney James Curl posting! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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