Brake shoe lining too thick?

[Ryan Robbins]

So I'm in the process of re-doing my rear brakes on my 47 Plymouth. I have new wheel cylinders and had the drums turned and new linings on the shoes at a shop(www.brakeplace.com). I put everything back together and tried to put the drum over the shoes and it won't go over the shoes? I do have both shoes backed all the way off and the plunger inserted all the way into the wheel cylinder. Is it possible the linings are too thick and therefore not allowing the drums to fit over them? Is there a standard thickness for linings? How much room should be between the linings and the drum if backed all the way off? I wouldn't have thought they could be that thick to keep the drums for going over, but this is the only explanation I can think of with everything adjusted to allow the most room to put drums on.

Thanks everyone!

[Young Ed]

Are you using new pins or the old ones? Might need to compare the pistons in the wheel cylinders to see if the depressions for the pins are different. Also you could call brakeplace and see if they put oversized linings on your shoes for some reason.

[Ryan Robbins]

Haven't had a chance to call brake place as they were closed when the problem came up. They will be hearing from me first thing in the morning. I'm sure I'll have to wait and see what they say, but I just wanted to check here to see if that was even a possibility, sounds like it could be.

I'm using the old pins that were on the shoes. The pins go pretty deep into the cylinders. I guess I don't recall how close it was before I disassembled, but they are very close to the actual cylinder. The new wheel cylinders did come with new pins, but there are no holes to mount and the old ones are riveted on the shoes. Did I need to replace them? The pins are still in good working order on the current shoes?

[Young Ed]

Haven't had a chance to call brake place as they were closed when the problem came up. They will be hearing from me first thing in the morning. I'm sure I'll have to wait and see what they say, but I just wanted to check here to see if that was even a possibility, sounds like it could be.

I'm using the old pins that were on the shoes. The pins go pretty deep into the cylinders. I guess I don't recall how close it was before I disassembled, but they are very close to the actual cylinder. The new wheel cylinders did come with new pins, but there are no holes to mount and the old ones are riveted on the shoes. Did I need to replace them? The pins are still in good working order on the current shoes?

Compare the two. I've never seen a pin that was riveted onto the brakeshoe. Might need to remove them.

[hillbilly4008]

I recently went through all this with my '53 Desoto. I had my shoes re-lined at a local brake shop for $20 a shoe, I also brought my drum at the same time because he matches the shoes to the drum . When I got them home and installed my drum would not go on. I called the guy and he told me to bring them back and he would shave them down. So I did. Returned home and tried it again, same deal. The drum absolutely would not go on, but it only looked like it was missing by 1/32" or less on both shoes. So I called back again and asked him if I brought everything to him (took the backing plate off the axle) could he make it work.

When I got there he let me stay and watch as he did the work. He shaved the shoes 2 more times when i was there and still couldn't get them to fit. He worked on it for over an hour. The final solution was turning the drum down a bit. After about 20 minutes on the machine it literally fell right over the shoes. It was a good thing he turned the drum, because somehow mine was out of round.

After all that work he did he did not charge me a cent. The man definitely earned my business, and I will go back in the future.

[hillbilly4008]

since were on the topic...whats the trick to removing the c-clips on the brake shoes with out bending them and rendering them useless?

[Ryan Robbins]

Does the brake line have to be disconnected from the wheel cylinder before you put the shoes on? I pushed the shoes pin all the way into the cylinder, but is it possible with the line connected to have pressure built up in the cylinder causing it to not depress all the way?

What was the comment on the pins not fitting new cylinders? Did they not fit or do they?

Also, my shoes were all relined with full linings, not the one on each side that is shorter. Is that an issue?

[Ryan Robbins]

As far as the pins being riveted on the shoes, how do they stay on if not riveted. Anyone have a picture of there pin/shoe set up? Maybe thats the issue?

[Ryan Robbins]

Thanks Shel. My pins are riveted onto my shoes. I might try and remove them to use the new pins that came with the wheel cylinders. I did see that the cups in the old cylinders had a different shape then the new ones. I'm hoping that the old pins just are fitting all the way into the new cylinders. I didn't realize that the pins didn't need to be attached to the shoes.

[mikemaker]

Had that problem some years back. I do not recommend it, but me and normspeed solved that problem with a belt sander on the brake lining. Like I say, i don't recommend it, but as a last resort, we got the drum on and all was good, and still is.

[Dodgeb4ya]

This all was hashed out a month ago-ya gotta use the correct pins for the wheel cylinders- two sizes a short and a long. Also too thick of lining seems to be a big issue because reliners I suppose don't know the maximum lining thickness spec. Brake shoe arching should always be done to prefit the new shoes to the drum diameter. Anchor pins will need some adjustment too.

[greg g]

Didja read the info GTK has on the main page of the site under works in progress and setting up the brake system??

[BobT-47P15]

Here's my earlier post about the pins.........

I bought some wheel cylinders from O'Reillys.

The cylinders for the rear (at least as I can remember) came with

pins. Seemed to work on the P15 coupe OK.

The front cylinders did NOT have pins. And, the indentation of

the front cup where the pin joins came to a point. My old pin

had a rounded, not pointed, end......would not work together....the

pin would not go in far enough.So I returned the cylinders and

found some elsewhere for the front.

OReilly could not supply different new pins.

__________________

My mechanic tried to assemble the brakes and the drum just would not

go on. He kept looking at things, took it apart, finally discovered about

the indention and the pointed (or non pointed pin end). I ended up with

cylinders with rounded indents to match the pins.

It also occurs to me that O'Reillys only lists their brake stuff as for a

1950 or 51 Plymouth as oldest vintage, not a 46-48. Did the early

50s Plymouths use the pointed pin instead of rounded?

[desoto1939]

since were on the topic...whats the trick to removing the c-clips on the brake shoes with out bending them and rendering them useless?

I use a thin flat blade screwdriver. I slide this in between the pin and teh clip and then use a hammer and tap on the screwdrive shaft to push the clip up od down. The clip can be rebent. It is just a pressure clip and goes into a slot to keep it onthe eccentric pin. When at a swap meet look for these clips to haev extras.

Rich HArtung

Desoto1939@aol.com

[desoto1939]

When the old style riveted linings were but back onto your old shoes the mechanic would do another step after the sets were done. They would put the shoe into the Ammco brake machine to grind down the lining so that they were in a perfect arc to the shoe and this would then take off any high spots also they would chamfer the end or taper the ends. This allowed the drum to turn and the drum then did not have a blunt end at each lining. With a tapered ends this helped the drum spin over the brake shoe.

If you purchase the old rivet lining that was predrilled specifically for your car then the tapered edges was done by the manufacture of the lining and the correct thickness of linign would have been used so only a minial amount of arching the shoes would be necessary and sometime none at all.

relining with the rivets is a very easy job to do.

Rich Hartung

[RobertKB]

since were on the topic...whats the trick to removing the c-clips on the brake shoes with out bending them and rendering them useless?

I bought new ones at a local auto parts dealer. If he had them, I am sure others do as well.

[Ryan Robbins]

Thanks to everyone for all the suggestions. In the end it turned out to be the wrong size push rods on the brake shoes. I never thought there were different sizes as mine were riveted onto the shoes. But I got them off and used the rods that came with the wheel cylinders and the drums slid right on! Got everything bleed and buttoned up and took if for a quick spin to check it all out. Thanks again guys and because we all like pics.......

[Young Ed]

Great! now we'll see you at the meet in august right?

[Dodgeb4ya]

I use a thin flat blade screwdriver. I slide this in between the pin and teh clip and then use a hammer and tap on the screwdrive shaft to push the clip up od down. The clip can be rebent. It is just a pressure clip and goes into a slot to keep it onthe eccentric pin. When at a swap meet look for these clips to haev extras.

Rich HArtung

Desoto1939@aol.com

Use a 13/16" open end wrench-takes em right off- no damage either.

Bob

Edited May 20, 2011 by Dodgeb4ya

[Bingster]

Okay, I think this proves something. The new cylinders need the new push rods, and they must be calibrated to use the new pins, whereas the old pins are designed for the old cylinders.

I bought some Bernbaum cylinders when I bought the car two years ago. Haven't put them in yet. He said to use the old pins, so I am assuming without looking at the cylinders that Bern's are exact replacements of the old.

[Ryan Robbins]

Great! now we'll see you at the meet in august right?

Back to the Fifties is the goal right now, we'll see about August.

[Dodgeb4ya]

The push rod issue needs to be a tech sticky-it comes up too often!

[Young Ed]

Back to the Fifties is the goal right now, we'll see about August.

Thats a good goal I'll be there too.

[Bingster]

Somebody had mentioned in another thread that at car shows they take off points if fender attaching bolts aren't original.

Do they inspect the brake system and take off points if new cylinders and push pins are used?

And, if the old ones must be used, why are the old pins like hens teeth to find?

My parts book for my '47 Desoto Custom says that the front and rear push pins are the same part number. They don't list a separate pin for the rear brakes.

Bernbaum does list the push pins but to my knowledge has not had them in stock for quite some time.

For a man who remanufacturers countless other parts, and sells the cylinders, why not these pins which look very simple to duplicate?

[BobT-47P15]

Ryan......glad you found the fix.

Great looking car.

Is it stock running gear?