Brakes....?

[jmooner3]

WHat should the travel be for the brake peddle be? I finally got new lines run, all four wheel cyl honed and new kits installed, bled the system and the truck stops now...Peddle goes alll the way to the floor and the truck slows to a stop. Not sure what it should do, If I pump the peddle it stops better I can get a slight skid out of the back wheels.

If this is not normal, are there adjustments I can make?could there still be air in the line? Advice welcome...

[Bradley S.]

Sounds like there is still air in the lines. Coaster brakes were not an option!

Brad

[desoto1939]

Rebleed the lines to make sure there is no air.

Are shoes adjusted properly.

Did you do anything with the eccentrics at the bottom of the shoes.

You might not have the shoes out far enough the travel is to great.

Did you use an Ammoc brake gage tool onthe brakes. refer to the technical Archives regarding the AMMCO brake tool. I created this last year for the AACA Convention in Phila.

I have the AMMCO brake tool.

Contact me.

Rich Hartung 610-630-9188 home phone

Desoto1939@aol.com

Edited March 30, 2010 by desoto1939

[wallytoo]

rather than air in the lines, the problem sounds more like the shoes have too much clearance from the drums, and an adjustment is needed so they ride closer to the drums in the "at rest" position.

[jmooner3]

I did not have access to the Ammco or Miller tools. I made a rough one to dial in shoes were equal distant at the pivot. I did move the eccentrics to accomplish this. This is a 1950 B2D one ton. Both front and rear shoes pivot at the bottom with single double piston at top. Shoes are mounted differently (Back just at bottom, Front have mid spring fastener and show allignment) I moved bottoms til just rubbing drum and then back a touch, verified they were equdistant with my home made jig, bled the lines and now have plenty of travel. I'll re-bleed to see if that fixes the soft peddle. Rich I saw your brake notes in the archive- great stuff...could it be just air or am I in need of THE Mighty TOOL!

[HanksB3B]

Brakes are solid, no leaks, but low pedal. I think this is because I bled them wrong. I bled from the closest to the master cylinder to the furthest. This time around I'm going to bleed them from the furthest to the closest. Wonder what is the bleeding order of the rear uppers or lowers.

This is what I intend to do. (correct me if I'm wrong)

1. Passenger Rear Lower, Upper

2. Driver Rear Lower, Upper

3. Passenger Front

4. Driver Front

Thanks,

Hank

Edited March 31, 2010 by HanksB3B

[TodFitch]

Brakes are solid, no leaks, but low pedal....snip...

Solid but with low pedal sounds like shoe adjustment to me.

[Zeke1953]

The lower rear cylinders should be bled before the uppers. You have the right sequence for bleeding the system, but I think step number four should be "Driver Front". The clearance between the shoes and drums is only .006" - .012" depending on the location, according to the '53 shop manual. If you don't have one, you can find it in the Pilot's Knowledge section of the DPETCA website. I'm not positive, but I think the specs are the same for all the 1/2 - 3/4 ton trucks. If the shoes are adjusted properly, there should be a slight drag when you spin the wheel. Zeke

[desoto1939]

Here is what I have learned after useing the Ammco tool.

Set the shoes according to the gage and clearencess. Put the drum back on the car or truck. Hit the brake pedal. You will still have a soft pedal.

Now Perform the minor adjustment by moving the upper pivot one at a time.

The tire needs to be off the ground so the wheel can spin. The wheel needs to be on the drum. Lock one of the upper pivots so the wheel can not spin.

Back off the upper pivot so there is a little amount of drag.

Then do the other upper pivot inthe same fashion. Pump the brake pedal

Now do the other side in the same manner

Do all four wheels and now you should have a good pedal.

Rich Hartung 610-630-9188 home

Desoto1939@aol.com

[HanksB3B]

I edited the post above re which wheel to do first. So now the sequence is correct. There were no continuous and very few single bubbles in my trucks system, but (correct me if I'm wrong) air could escape through the clear tubing I used before the brake fluid comes out. The pedal did come up a little bit, and I adjusted the brake pedal by turning the bolt and lock bolt clockwise about 1/4". There is still a little freeplay. The braking starts about halfway to the floor and is rock solid at that point. I'm without the Miller Tool, so the best I could do was to use the Pilothouse Cheat-Sheet to accomplish the major and minor adjustments. Instead of finding the drag point and then backing off slightly one wheel at a time, I'm hoping to get the truck onto a lift and adjust all four wheels to see if I can get an even feel all around.

I've seen a couple of homemade brake tools and hope someday to make one from PVC and do a real simple, well documented job so it could be shared. It seems to me (and I may need more experience) but for best results a tool like the Miller Tool or the Ammco Tool is necessary to get the best adjustment on our brakes.

Hank

The lower rear cylinders should be bled before the uppers. You have the right sequence for bleeding the system, but I think step number four should be "Driver Front". The clearance between the shoes and drums is only .006" - .012" depending on the location, according to the '53 shop manual. If you don't have one, you can find it in the Pilot's Knowledge section of the DPETCA website. I'm not positive, but I think the specs are the same for all the 1/2 - 3/4 ton trucks. If the shoes are adjusted properly, there should be a slight drag when you spin the wheel. Zeke

[Dodgeb4ya]

I edited the post above re which wheel to do first. So now the sequence is correct. There were no continuous and very few single bubbles in my trucks system, but (correct me if I'm wrong) air could escape through the clear tubing I used before the brake fluid comes out. The pedal did come up a little bit, and I adjusted the brake pedal by turning the bolt and lock bolt clockwise about 1/4". There is still a little freeplay. The braking starts about halfway to the floor and is rock solid at that point. I'm without the Miller Tool, so the best I could do was to use the Pilothouse Cheat-Sheet to accomplish the major and minor adjustments. Instead of finding the drag point and then backing off slightly one wheel at a time, I'm hoping to get the truck onto a lift and adjust all four wheels to see if I can get an even feel all around.

I've seen a couple of homemade brake tools and hope someday to make one from PVC and do a real simple, well documented job so it could be shared. It seems to me (and I may need more experience) but for best results a tool like the Miller Tool or the Ammco Tool is necessary to get the best adjustment on our brakes.

Hank

Here is a real (maybe more like unreal) heck of a deal on a Ammco 1750 on E-Pay right now! They just get higher and higher it seems.

Bob

[HanksB3B]

We need to make a tool and put an end to this folly!

Hank

[Merle Coggins]

I had a similar problem with mine. I readjusted the brake shoes and it helped some, but until I adjusted the push rod between the pedal and master cylinder I still had a low pedal. Especially if you've changed your M/C you'll neeed to check the pedal free play and adjust the rod so that you get the proper M/C stroke. You need about 1/4" - 3/8" pedal movement before the M/C piston begins to move.

Merle

[Reg Evans]

Here's a little blurb on the brake pedal free play found in the owners manual.

[desoto1939]

Gentleman>

I have mention that I have the Ammco tool and I will loan the tool out to the members but I will need a downpayment on the tool.

If you contact me I will explain how it works. Basically you give me a douwnpayment on the tool. I use part of the money to ship the tool to you. When the tool is return the remaining fund are sent back to you.

Rich Hartung

Desoto1939@aol.com

[HanksB3B]

I had a similar problem with mine. I readjusted the brake shoes and it helped some, but until I adjusted the push rod between the pedal and master cylinder I still had a low pedal. Especially if you've changed your M/C you'll neeed to check the pedal free play and adjust the rod so that you get the proper M/C stroke. You need about 1/4" - 3/8" pedal movement before the M/C piston begins to move.

Merle

Every cylinder is new as are the brake lines. No bubbles evident at bleed time.

Solid pedal feel at 4-5 inches from floor. I think I can do a little better without the tool if I have the truck on a lift and can comfortably adjust all four in sequence and get them to feel the same all the way around. Really want to fabricate a good working simple to build tool mostly from standard plumbing parts.

Thanks for the blurb Reg. With all your years of Mopar, do you have either the Miller or Ammco tool.

General Question for tool owners: Is the Miller and Ammco tool basically the same? Would it make any difference which one to use as a model for fabrication?

Thanks,

Hank

[Reg Evans]

Yes Hank. I have the Ammco 1750. I use to have 2 of them but one went on eBay a few years back. I'm not sure what the Miller tool looks like so I can't compare the two. The Ammco tool first measures the diameter of your drum and then is adjusted with just the right amount of clearance for the shoes. The home made tools are better than nothing but you can't get the proper clearance for the shoes with one.

I ,like Richard,would also loan my tool out but there would have to be a hefty deposit before it could be pried from my cautious little hands. Or a guy could drive up here for a visit and use my lift to do it here at eye level.

[JBNeal]

... Or a guy could drive up here for a visit and use my lift to do it here at eye level.

that sounds alot like how "Hansel & Gretel" got in trouble

[Reg Evans]

Oh Man.....you're on to me. This is how I got most of my old cars and trucks and mysteriously the visitor was never heard from again.

Anyway....so Brad...when ya comin up ?

PS.....No need to tell anyone where you're going though.

[HanksB3B]

Reg,

The lift sure looks nice and what's on it even nicer. If you have some time, any chance of photgraphing the Ammco Tool individually as parts and documenting the O.D., I.D. lenght, width of each. Are there more parts to the kit than are needed for our cars and trucks, if so don't include them.

Of course the selfish part of me wants to start with only the parts I'd need for my 51 B3B 1/2 ton, but I think it would make a lot of people happy to have a low cost tool that would be accurate and hold up for non-commercial use. I don't have a lot of machinery like a lathe but somehow with a little ingenuity I think I could make it from off the shelf hardware store items. I'd rather use metal or pvc pipe than wood. I've got the time, but just need some help.

Thanks,

Hank (Hansel)

http://www430.pair.com/p15d24/mopar_forum/showthread.php?p=188241#post188241

P.S. Did the storm front hit you yet? Also, I always make sure my truck is on a lift when I adjust my rearview mirror also.

Edited March 31, 2010 by HanksB3B

[oldmopar]

On the 1 ton the ammco will work on the front but not the rears have a 14" (maybe a little larger ,forget )drum I think the miller works but there maybe a separate tool for the truck ?

Desoto1939 may have the answer. On the rears on my 1 ton I just did a adjustment the best I could with the drum 1/2 on and used a feeler gauge.

However since I am still in the process of putting my steering back together,picking up the last tire rod from napa tomorrow. I have not road tested it yet.

[Don Coatney]

Reg,

any chance of photgraphing the Ammco Tool

Hank

Follow this link for photos.

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v65/DonCoatney/Brakes/Ammco/

[HanksB3B]

I have a bunch of photos of the Miller and the Ammco tool now. Appreciate it!

My test drive went very well this afternoon. Freeplay about 3/4" of an inch, stroke about 3" and then a solid pedal around 6" from the floor. Even though I saw very little in the way of air bubbles, I suspect some measure of air escaped during the bleed process yesterday.

Hank

Edited March 31, 2010 by HanksB3B

[jmooner3]

I bled the brakes again with very little bubbles and crystal clear brake fluid coming out. Seems mechanical at this point (At the wheel or at the master cyl). As "oldmopar" said the front and rear drums/shoes are different on the 1ton. The rear looks like there is only the eccentric at the bottom pivot can be adjusted. There is a lot of play from piston all the way in to extend out to drum...am I missing an adjustment there?

As for the fronts, looks like there are more adjustments. I dialed the eccentric at bottom pivot to just touching drum both front and rear, backed off and that's it. How do I adjust the top and take up some of the play. It seems that is creating all the peddle travel.

Net is: I dialed in front and rear with just the bottom pivot eccentric and the peddle travel is all the way to the floor...Any help in what I can tweak to get more than the flintstone braking system is welcome.

Where to go next, at the wheels or at the master cyl?

[Merle Coggins]

Go here and read this Brake section of the B4 shop manual on the DPETCA site. http://dodgepilothouseclub.org/know/B4_manual/B4_brakes.pdf You'll find the 1 ton rear brake adjustment procedure on Page 27.

Merle