Stalling

[HanksB3B]

A couple of days ago I think I overfilled my oil bath air filter. The reason I think this occured is that after a test drive I noticed my carb looked saturated with oil. Later, the same day, I had a hard start that took a lot of cranking. I stalled a couple of times getting out of the driveway. When I got out to the street it conked and wouldn't start. Feeling like a 3,400 lb. paperweight ready to call AAA to get me back into my parking space, it finally started and I made it back to my parking space and charged the battery.

Today I removed about half of the oil in the air filter. I took another test drive to see if I fixed my speedometer successfully and also to get a feel for how my major brake adjustment faired. About a half hour in things seemed like they were going well so I thought I'd pick up a few groceries. Just when I got into the parking lot the engine wanted to stall. I pumped it a few times and saved it, then with one hand on the throttle made a feeble over-reved landing into my parking spot about a mile away. I started it a few times and let it run each time for a little while. Everything seemed normal, but I feel like it could happen again.

These are my thoughts:

1. Oil initially fouled out my plugs causing the hard start, but that would burn-off right? but more than that..

2. Not enough fuel pressure from either a clogged fuel line or ??? Can a fuel pump fail gradually, or act up intermittently???

O.K. The kind of mechanic I am is that I can take the truck apart and put it toghether, but am not equipped, knowledgeable or experienced enough to use diagnostic gauges and meters to check vaccume, fuel pressure etc so...

3. Now that my truck's all together I'm thinking I should have the truck tuned. Is all this stuff routine for most mechanics? I'm thinking, simple as our trucks are, finding someone familiar with our vintage vehicles may be difficult. My instinct is to find a shop that's been in existance since the fifties if I can, or should I bite the bullet and invest in some diagnostic tools, hit the Truck Manual and go through points, voltage regulator, vacumme, fuel pressure, compression, valve clearance and so on and on..

What do you guys do?

Thanks,

Hank

Edited February 8, 2010 by HanksB3B

[greg g]

first thing I would do is check the plugs, oil fouled plugs will not clean off as readily as a fuel fouled plug. If they look like this, change them.

[Harvey Tank]

the samethng happened to me on my 1950 P20, every time I stoped and turn the ign. off and come back a few minutes latter and it would not start. and some one here on this forum told me to put the accellerator all the way to the floor. and don't let it up. keep cranking the eventually it would start. remember accellerator to the floor, a crank, and crank. it will start.

my priblem was the float on carburator was set to hi. gas was boilin over it to the intake manifold. flooding the car. I made minor adj. now every thing works fine thanks for the information you can get from these guys here on the forum. a wealth of informatiom here. good luck.

[JBNeal]

I reckon the spark plugs should give a hint as to whut's going on here. Oil-fouled, replace'm; fuel-fouled, clean'm with carb.cleaner. If there is oil coating the throat of the carb, spray carb.cleaner down that. Sediment in the fuel bowls might point to something hanging up in the internals of the carb.

My '49 had a disasterous failure a year and a half ago that I ultimately decided started with clogged fuel lines. I had gotten the fuel tank cleaned & sealed with Renu, as it had pin holes along the perimeter weld. I had rebuilt the fuel pump & carburetors, but retained the original fuel lines. That was an oversight on my part cuz I reckon I just flat forgot to replace those rusty things. It had a hard starting problem that eventually was rectified with new battery cables with soldered lugs. During my shake-down cruise into town, the truck just cut off while going 40mph up a slight grade. I coasted to a side street and noticed that the fuel bowls & carb were empty. Using ether, I was able to start the truck, but it would quickly die. Filling the fuel bowls & carb with gasoline, the truck started right up & ran fine until the fuel bowls emptied. Attaching a temporary fuel line to the fuel pump from a 5 gallon gas can, I was able to start the truck & keep it running. That's when it dawned on me that the original fuel lines were clogged, cuz I recall seeing sediment in the fuel bowls when they were dry.

The disaster was getting the truck towed home. The wrecker that I called (cuz I knew the owner) dispatched a boom wrecker rather than a flatbed. Since I was on a sorta bad side of town and had already had a few trouble-makers eyeballing me, I just wanted to get outta there asap so I didn't think ahead about what could happen. Two-tooth Timmy tied a rope around the steering wheel & cinched it by wrapping it around the door hinge before closing the door. He then hooked the truck by the rear axle, and when I questioned this, he told me it was safer that way. After pleading with this big-mouth redneck four times on the back roads home to keep it under 40mph cuz of the unbalanced lock-ring rims, he topped a hill and started to pick up speed when I saw the front fenders of my truck flapping in the breeze and a cloud of rusty dust billowing from the front wheel wells. I yelled at him to slow down, and right then & there the front end broke loose and nearly clipped a light pole. As I looked in the engine compartment, I could see the steering box adapter that bolts to the frame had busted, rather than the mounting bolts. Seeing this, Two-tooth Timmy pops off "it was like that when I hooked it up".

The moral of this story: never ever get your ride towed unless they use a flatbed, cuz the boom wreckers are just another accident waiting to happen.

Edited May 16, 2010 by JBNeal
added picture

[MBF]

Hank-I think you may have a couple of things going on. I'd replace the oil fouled plugs or at least clean them in a blaster. I think you may have some fuel issues going on too (float hanging or some type of intermittant blockage in the fuel system). On my slant 6 pickup, I sometimes had a problem with it starting after it sat for a week or so. It turned out that the neoprene seat on the needle valve had a groove worn it it where the pointed part of the valve contacts the brass seat. A new valve and seat fixed the starting problem. You may also want to check inside your distributor and make sure that the small wire that goes from the points to the coil bridge isn't grounding out. Just some things to try. And by all means-if you enjoy this type of stuff-get your hands dirty and learn by doing. A lot more satisfying than paying someone to do work you can do yourself, and a lot cheaper too! Mike

Edited February 8, 2010 by MBFowler

[HanksB3B]

49Dodge1ton,

Thanks for sharing the horror story. Did you ever get her back on the road after that. Did you sue, or did insurance ever cover it? I do know the feeling of being in a bad place at the wrong time. I have AAA and have always insisted on flatbeds. The only thing I think I'd ever let anybody boom-tow is maybe a 1979 Toyota Collola. I'll check out my plugs and either check my fuel pressure out myself. The carb was recently rebuilt by a specialized pro shop across the country, but I'm learning that doesn't always mean it was done correctly, like my brake cylinders. There is nothing like doing it yourself for sure. Will keep you posted on what I find.

Thanks,

Hank

[JBNeal]

It's been parked in front of the house since July '08, with many many interruptions & foul weather that have put off repairs. I blame myself for the whole thing cuz as soon as that moron hooked it up by the rear axle, I should have put my foot down and told that goofball to take a hike. If I had replaced the fuel lines when I replaced all of the brake lines, I never would have broken down in the first place. I haven't done any cosmetic restoration yet, so it's only got liability insurance on it. I didn't want anymore aggravation as I had that day, so I chalked it up to another expensive experience builder.

When it comes to carb rebuilds, I remember what Grandpa told me way back: if ya have to get your carb rebuilt, make sure there ain't gonna be no hippie working on it, cuz then you'll invariably get one of his whiskers in the works and you'll be back to square one before ya know it.

[HanksB3B]

That's a sad story. I hope you have other projects or another Pilothouse truck that's in good shape. Maybe a decision to part it out may be more satisfying and money always nice to have. I wish you all the best, whatever you decide.

Hank

[HanksB3B]

at least I think so. I think it was only a dead battery causing my stalling problems. I only have a little Sears 6 volt charger. It works well, but decided to take the battery over to where I bought it. They charged it on a commercial battery charger. The next morning I installed it and it would hardly turn the engine over. I decided to get a new battery and turned it in as the core. The new battery from Napa started it right up no problem, so I took it on a test drive. It ran great, but needed a little more cranking to start once the engine was up to running temperature during my various stops. A couple of day ago I looked at the plugs and they seemed to have more carbon deposit than usual which I still think is due to overfilling the oil bath air cleaner with light weight oil and the engine getting a gulp of oil and burning it off but blackening the plugs. A bunch of guys meet every Saturday at a local Starbucks and some of the are in the automotive business. Pat has his own shop and always has some unbelievable cars around. Pat is a real stand up guy and if something is beyond his area of expertise, he'll give you the name of someone better qualified. I called the other shop and spoke to Reid. He told me to use a non-detergent 50 weight oil in the air filter and explained the detergent oil would absorb the dirt, whereas non detergent oil would seperate it and the sediment would sink to the bottom or something like that, anyway it's a non detergent oil that belongs there.

This week I'm planning to go over to Reid's shop and let him diagnose my engine. Even though it only has a couple of hundred miles on it, I'd like to know the compression, vacuume, fuel pressure, voltage regulator numbers, timing, the condition of the points/plugs/condenser, check the tappet clearances and whatever else he can think of.

I'm really enjoying my truck and want it to be as maintenence free as possible. Looking forward to some really nice drives this spring and summer. There are still some things left to do like my emergency brake and verify that replacing all the brake components are working 100% before I feel comfortable taking her into the mountains. It's supposed to get up to 80 deg. today, but I watchin the Daytona 500 and rebuilding an extra BB carb.

Hope you guys have fun today too,

Hank

[HanksB3B]

Ever since I put it all together I’ve wanted to have a professional make sure everything was the way it was supposed to be.

I dropped my truck off at Dick Wagoner Dyno Service in Redondo Beach. Reid Jones and his son Jeff run the shop. It's one of those shops you could eat off the floor, everything clean and in it's place. Reid went over my truck performed a Dyno & Scope test and made some minor adjustments. When I got to the shop to pick up the truck Reid had the fenders drapped with movers blankets to protect the paint. I always have to remind myself or a helper "It's about the Paint" while working on the truck.

Overall Reid's opinion of the truck was that mechanically the engine was in excellent running order. He took the time to clean the powder coat off the lower pulley to see the timing marks clearly. He set the timing to 6deg BTDC. The vaccume showed 17-18 at 750rpm. The fuel pump delivered 1pt at 30 seconds. The voltage regulator was putting out 7.2 volts (is this about right?)

The plug wires however, showed high resistance. He described the spark I was getting as Orange rather than Lightning. Reid recommended I replace them with Packard 440wire and use a higher heat range plug like a Champion RJ-12C, but said if possible to find Non Resistor Plugs.

Reid called me at the end of the day (nice) and asked how it was running. I told him the truck was running considerably smoother, but I said I did have one hard start after shutdown. He said (I'm not sure I have this exact) those old carbs seem to give the engine a last gulp of gas when shut down and this can turn into vapor (dreaded vapor lock?) and make it difficult to restart. It's so easy to run down the battery (even a new one).

We agreed that when restarting the engine after hot, the default value should be "flooded" rather than "gas-starved". Does anyone agree with this? When hot, it seemed better to restart with the choke all the way in and the throttle pulled all the way out till the engine caught.

Yesterday I saw a set of wires on Ebay. They are solid metal core non resistor laquered cloth finish, but have no boots on the plug. The vendor told me this is historically correct. The truck was originally equippebd with this type of wire and no spark plug caps. The attached picture seems to confirm this.

I haven't bought the plugs yet and was wondering what you guys are using I know the "R" in RJ-12C means resistor, but Reid said use a non-resistor plug if possible. Any Recommendations on mfg. and plug number? What is the correct Heat Range?

I think a hotter spark from the wires and the correct plugs gapped properly are going to solve the hard start problem and the plugs won’t be carbon fouled. Thanks for your help fellows.

Hank

[Merle Coggins]

Yes, a hotter spark will certainly help with starting. I am running Autolite plugs (#306 I think) and they seem to be fine. For plug wires I got a universal set for a 6 cylinder tractor. They were made to be cut to fit and then install the distributor ends. They also seem to be working just fine and look original. They were also rather inexpensive.

As for the hot starting issue... Often times the heat from the engine radiates up and heats up the float bowl on the carb. This causes the gas to expand and the level rises enough for gas to flow through the jets and into the intake manifold. This causes the "flooded" contition when you try to restart it. I've found that giving it a little throttle while cranking will allow it to start up much easier when hot.

Merle

[Young Ed]

I believe RJ12YCs are what I run in my 2 flatheads. He is right that when its really hot out my carbs can boil out a little and get hard to start. Biggest thing there is to avoid the temptation to pump the gas when starting it hot. You can also lower your float setting a little to give the gas room to expand without going over into the intake.

[Reg Evans]

A lot of folks here say that Champion plugs are not good. I am one of them. I have had mis-fire and hard starting problems with them even when new and only use AC plugs now.

[HanksB3B]

I'm on the same mindset with champion plugs and usually use AutoLite. Have no experience with A/C but wouldn't be opposed. Do you agree I should use a Non resistor plug? What about the heat range ? I don't want to rely on the parts counter guy just because they are close and he just happens to have them in stock. I think lowering the float setting is a stellar idea. How much from the factory setting should I go?

Hank

Edited February 19, 2010 by HanksB3B

[HanksB3B]

I'm using Autolite 306 plugs (just like Merle).

Reid suggested a Non supression set of wires and Non Resistor Plugs. The set of wires should be here this week.

Autolite 306 is a resistor plug with a heat range of 6

Autolite 295 is a non-resistor plug with a heat range of 5

I don't intend to change from the 306's just yet as they are only a week old unless someone gives me a good reason. The engine is running great now, and now that I understand how gas in a hot carb tends to flood the engine at hot start, the technique of holding the throttle open is giving much better restarts.

Question: Would the spark with non-supression wires make the heat range 6 plugs too hot. I'm guessing I't'll be o.k., but more than likely in a year or so will replace the 360 plugs with 295's.

Question: What exactly is the difference in degrees of 5 and 6 heat range plugs.

Thanks,

Hank

P.S. Spark plug wire set description:

New, show-quality lacquered-cotton spark plug wire set for all 1949 1950 1951 1952 1953 1954 Dodge - De Soto - Chrysler Windsor . Cable jackets have glossy black-lacquer coating and inner conductors are plated copper like the original equipment. Includes coil wire.

Still scared of no plug caps, but like the vendor said "Even if you touch a rubber cap when it's running you'll still get a shock". I know I can always put the ones I have on the new set of wires.

[Merle Coggins]

Alright Hank, here's what I've been able to determine from a little research...

The spark plugs that fit our trucks have 14mm thread with 3/8" reach. Based on that, and the part numbers that I'm familure with, Autolite 306, AC-Delco R45 (which is actually in my truck now), and Champion RJ12C, this is what I found.

The Autolite 306 is a Resistor plug with a B7 heat range and a standard tip with a copper core. The Autolite 306 crosses to a Champion J11C or an RJ11, or RJ7, RJ8, RJ8C, etc. I couldn't find any information regarding Autolite's heat ranges or other plugs of similar size in different heat ranges.

I couldn't find much info on AC-Delco's site (it seems to be having problems right now) on the R45, but the "R" means a resistor plug, the "4" should mean 14mm plug, and the "5" should represent their heat range. According to Champion's site it crosses to a RJ8C which is a colder plug then.

Champion's web site seems to have the most comprehensive info about spark plugs, and their numbering system is logical. Breaking down a plug number like the RJ12C we see that "R" stands for a Resistor plug. "J" tells us that is a 14mm plug with a 3/8" reach. "12" is their hear range number. "C" stands for Copper core. So that tells me that a J11C would be a non-resistor plug that is slightly colder. An RJ8C would be a resistor plug even colder.

Whether it is a resistor plug or not it won't affect the spark. The resistors are added to suppress radio interference. If you don't have a radio it won't matter. But if you have, or plan to install, a radio I'd advise sticking with resistor plugs.

Heat range numbers are not the same between manufacturers.

Here's some info on heat ranges from Champion

http://www.championsparkplugs.com/charglossary.asp?kw=Heat+range

After reading all of this I wonder if I should go back to the Autolite 306's. I remember now that my local parts store didn't have the 306 plugs when I wanted to replace them last spring. They crossed them to the AC R45's which they did have, so that's what I'm running now.

As for plug wires you should be able to find a universal, cut to size, set that will work just fine. I got mine at Farm & Fleet, which is a midwest store chain. There were in the tractor parts isle with tune up parts for agg tractors. The plug ends were already attached with 90 degree tips and boots. I could then fish the wires down through the wire loops on my coil bracket and cut them the proper length to fit into the distributor cap. Then you just have to attach the cap terminals and insert them into the cap. Piece of cake. As I recall the set was around $15 and looks very much like the set that came with the truck. I've heard that some other guys found similar sets at Tractor Supply or other similar stores. I don't know what you have near you, but there should be something usable.

Does this help or hinder?

Merle

[Dave72dt]

If I can confuse you a little more. you can go one step either side of the recommended heat range depending on the type of driving you do. Mainly city type driving may require a step hotter to keep the plugs burning clean due to increased idle time and lower combustion temperatures while distance driving and working trucks may want a step colder. They're able to maintain a more consistant combustion temp than a stop and goer does. It's a compromise. Run it and check the plugs after you put some miles on, driving how you intend to use it.

[HanksB3B]

Thanks for taking the time to answer my question so thoroughly. I sure wish I had a Farm & Fleet nearby. If you need anything from Porshe or Ferarri down here in L.A. just let me know, likewise if I need anything from Farm & Fleet I'll do the same...All kidding aside I did find a set of non-resistor wires (I'm not one of those fortunate enough to have a Motorola 610-T Radio) on Ebay.

I will however see if Farm & Fleet has a web site because there are a few things (especially lubricants) I can't seem to find here. I'm glad that resistor plugs won't affect the spark and if what Dave said is true as far as the type of driving then the 306's should be just right for me. I'm counting on the non-supression wires to make the difference in delivering better spark. Below is shown info from the Autolite web site:

Autolite Traditional Spark Plugs

14mm Thread, 9.5mm (3/8") Reach, 13/16" (20.6mm) Hex Size, Gasket Seat,

Autolite 306 .035"

Resistor, Copper Core, Heat Range 6

Autolite 295 .035"

Non-Resistor, Copper Core, Heat Range 5

(Original Equipment Manufacturer and/or Original Equipment Equivalent)

Even though I do mostly stop and go driving, if I really notice a change by using the non-supression wires, I will give the cooler Autolite 295's a try towards the end of the summer August, September when it really gets hot around here and I wish I were somewhere else.

I think I now know everything I never wanted to know about Spark Plugs...well maybe enough for now.

Thanks again,

Hank

[48Dodger]

Without seeing the truck, and in the spirit of offering a different view, I wonder if you have a grounding problem. Hot plugs sluff off carbon on older engines who burn more oil than usual, and colder plugs work best on high performance engines (ie high compression) so as not to pre-ignite the gas. If you have a stalling problem after running "fine" for awhile, it could be a weak point somewhere in the ignition. Just another thought.

48D

[Merle Coggins]

Blain's Farm & Fleet does have a web site. They are a Janesville, WI based company with stores located around WI, IA, and IL.

http://www.farmandfleet.com/default.aspx

And here is a link to the plug wires that I am using, although it says that they are only available in store. http://www.farmandfleet.com/products/620808-6_cylinder_spark_plug_wire_set.html?lref=%2ffarm_livestock%2fequipment_parts%2ftractor_parts%2fparts_accessories%2f If you really want a set I'll go buy them for you. They'll probably fit in a small Flat Rate box at the post office, so your total would be around $20.

We also have Mills Fleet Farm stores around here. They are a Brainard, MN based company with locations throughout MN, WI, IA, and ND. Their web site is http://www.fleetfarm.com/index.jsp but I couldn't find the same amount of tractor parts on their site.

Fleet Farm and Farm & Fleet stores are very similar with their mix of farm supplies, clothing, sporting goods, automotive parts and supplies, as well as home and garden supplies and equipment. I don't know if I could live in an area without one if these stores nearby. In face, Fleet Farm used to sell t-shirts that read, "If There's No Fleet Farm in Heaven I'm Not Going" I almost bought one of those.

[HanksB3B]

Merle, funny thing is Janesville is where my daughter lives with my three grandchildren. If the wires I have already ordered don't work out, now I know of an inexpensive gift my daughter can get me for Christmas. The valve adjustment thread has inspired me to get in there and adjust my valves, as the only adjustment that was ever made was when it was recently rebuilt (motor probably has les than 100 hrs on it). It seems to be running strong and quiet, but compared to what I don't know. The bad news is that one of the inner fender shields was really tight and tough to install, the good news is that it is the drivers side, so I have no excuse.

Thanks so much,

Hank

[Merle Coggins]

Sounds like a good excuse to come up and visit the grandkids. "Hey Honey... I going out to get some parts for my truck... I'll stop by and visit the grandkids on my way back..."

The Janesville Farm & Fleet store is on the north end of town just east of the intersection of Hwy's 14 & 26, just off of I-90. Easy to find.