OIL?

[michael.warshaw]

is there any brand of specialty oil to use that is better than any other for ou cars mine a 1947 special deluxe club coupe?

beside using a napa filter, is there anything i could use thats btter than napa, i would imagine that there is?

[greg g]

http://www430.pair.com/p15d24/mopar_forum/search.php?searchid=293963

[claybill]

designation SM is not good..for new cars only.

anyting with designation SJ or earlier is ok. this info was told to me at an oil seminar in wisc last year.

actually walmart has oil for cars before 1980..SJ stuff. in 1 qt bottles.

bill

[HalfdollarMayflower]

I used to use Rotella 30 wt oil in my P19...but they went and reformulated the stuff and now it lacks the good additives that made it attractive to begin with. GM (gag!) had a ZDDP engine break-in additive but they have reformulated it too to meet emissions requirements, so again, no luck there.

Check out Brad Penn oil...supposed to be full of the good 'ol stuff (Zinc) that our flat-tappet motors need. I've also heard good things about Valvoline Racing oil, but I'm not sure if they've reformulated it or not.

[TodFitch]

...supposed to be full of the good 'ol stuff (Zinc) that our flat-tappet motors need....

I dunno.

My car survived just fine for the first 30 or 40 years of its existence with straight old oil with no additives. Seems like that says the loads and wear pattern on the lifters is such that it probably does not need a zinc additive. Maybe if it was a higher revving engine with stiffer springs and a more aggressive cam the loading and wear would be different.

Apparently the motors that they test motor oil on are flat tappet type. And reportedly they have seen no issues on tappet wear.

So I'm just going to continue to get a name brand modern motor oil that has the viscosity index modifiers that allows oil to flow well when cold and enough detergent to keep combustion byproduct suspended until the next oil change.

[HalfdollarMayflower]

I believe most all motor oils formulated prior to 2004-05 used zinc. Modern reformulations have removed the vast majority of the zinc from motor oil, as modern engines simply do not need the superior sacrificial layer zinc provides (roller tappets for example).

So chances are, your engine survived its first 20-30 years on off the shelf oil with a (comparitively) high zinc content.

Not sure what type of motors they test oil with...but someone that tells you that zinc is not needed in a flat-tappet/severe duty application is either ignorant or downright dishonest.

Do a google search for "Flat tappet cam failure" and see how the zinc issue plays in...its a common problem with 'modern' oils.

[greg g]

modern oil and chinese steel cams and lifters.

[HalfdollarMayflower]

Here's a good link

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Article/3100/performance_oils_and_additives_got_zinc.aspx

also check out http://bobistheoilguy.com

[TodFitch]

So chances are, your engine survived its first 20-30 years on off the shelf oil with a (comparitively) high zinc content.

Google search tells me that ZDDP was first used as an oil additive years after my 1933 was built.

Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_oil as this tidbit (with my bolding):

All the current gasoline categories (including the obsolete SH), have placed limitations on the phosphorus content for certain SAE viscosity grades (the xW-20, xW-30) due to the chemical poisoning that phosphorus has on catalytic converters. Phosphorus is a key anti-wear component in motor oil and is usually found in motor oil in the form of Zinc_dithiophosphate. Each new API category has placed successively lower phosphorus limits, and this has created a controversial issue of backwards compatibility with much older engines, especially engines with sliding tappets. API, and ILSAC, which represents most of the worlds major automobile/engine manufactures, states API SM/ILSAC GF-4 is fully backwards compatible, and it is noted that one of the engine tests required for API SM, the Sequence IVA, is a sliding tappet design to test specifically for cam wear protection. However, not everyone is in agreement with backwards compatibility, and in addition, there are special situations, such as "modified" engines or fully race built engines, where the engine protection requirements are above and beyond API/ILSAC requirements. Because of this, there are specialty oils out in the market place with higher than API allowed phosphorus levels.

Since ZDDP was not in oil when the 190 cu.in. and 201 cu.in. engines were designed I can't see where the factory could require them. The 218 cu.in. and 230 cu.in. were introduced in the era when ZDDP was just starting to be added to oil. But Chrysler engineers had a reputation for attention to long engine life (witness exhaust valve inserts, full pressure lubrication, etc.) and I doubt that they relied on having oil with ZDDP in it to keep from having service problems.

You read your articles and do your Google searches. Then make up your own mind. My take is that specifications and testing indicate that oil that passes current standards should be okay for street driven cars. Your take could be different.

[BobT-47P15]

I use Valvoline 10w-40 regular oil.........seems to work just fine.

[RobertKB]

I buy 20W 50 oil for my three flatties. Best brand is the one that is the cheapest. I am with Tod on this one. Any oil today is way better than what these cars had new.

[Frank Ollian]

Lucas has a break in additive containing zinc, available at my local Napa.

If you decide to use a zinc additive I think 1/2 bottle of this in your oil change would work.

[HalfdollarMayflower]

Google search tells me that ZDDP was first used as an oil additive years after my 1933 was built.

Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_oil as this tidbit (with my bolding):

Since ZDDP was not in oil when the 190 cu.in. and 201 cu.in. engines were designed I can't see where the factory could require them. The 218 cu.in. and 230 cu.in. were introduced in the era when ZDDP was just starting to be added to oil. But Chrysler engineers had a reputation for attention to long engine life (witness exhaust valve inserts, full pressure lubrication, etc.) and I doubt that they relied on having oil with ZDDP in it to keep from having service problems.

You read your articles and do your Google searches. Then make up your own mind. My take is that specifications and testing indicate that oil that passes current standards should be okay for street driven cars. Your take could be different.

Never meant to sound antagonistic...forgive me if my post came across that way. Looks like you've researched the subject quite a bit and feel confident about the choice you've made for your car. Kudos to you for that.

Edited August 6, 2009 by HalfdollarMayflower

[claybill]

lots of talk...but none of that info is on the can label. only the letter designation on the little API circle...SF-SH-SJ-SM ETC...the newest being SM,

the reformulated type for newer car engines...

naturally any oil testing lab would say 'backward' use ok. what would happen if they said...'nope, SM IS ONLY FOR 2005 AND UPWARDS CARS..!!!!

i go with SJ or anything earlier.

bill

[55 Fargo]

I used to use Rotella 30 wt oil in my P19...but they went and reformulated the stuff and now it lacks the good additives that made it attractive to begin with. GM (gag!) had a ZDDP engine break-in additive but they have reformulated it too to meet emissions requirements, so again, no luck there.

Check out Brad Penn oil...supposed to be full of the good 'ol stuff (Zinc) that our flat-tappet motors need. I've also heard good things about Valvoline Racing oil, but I'm not sure if they've reformulated it or not.

Shell Rotella T has 1200 PPM, of ZDDP in it, even with the new formulation

[greg g]

I have been using diesel oil from Tractor supply 15W40 for the last two years. It is still configured for flat tappets, and it says it is formulated for all engines.

http://www.tractorsupply.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CatalogSearchResultView?storeId=10551&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&pageSize=20&beginIndex=0&sType=SimpleSearch&resultCatEntryType=2&error1=&ip_text=diesel+oil&ip_textHH=diesel+oil&ip_requestUri=ProductDisplay&ip_categoryId=&ip_mode=&ip_perPage=20

[Plymouthy Adams]

all you wanted to know but were afraid to ask...be sure to read the intro the this white paper......I was at the tractor supply place this morning (John Deere, I have concluded nothing has you running out for parts like a John Deere but that is another subject) while there they have some break in oil specially formulated for all engines in the John Deere brand..however there was not a chemical composition/breakdown of additives etc...

http://mcgeerf.tripod.com/americansyntheticoil/id17.html

[Normspeed]

I broke in my fresh motor with Castrol GTX 5w20. Then after 500 miles I went to Shell Rotella T 15w40. When I moved to where we have colder winters, I went to Rotella T Synthetic 5w40. No problems so far, with over 20,000 on the motor. Plenty of oil pressure even in hot summer weather.

I'm with Tod, my theory, such as it is, the tappet and cam wear is probably more of a problem if you were running stiffer valve springs, high lift cam, and huge rpms, none of which apply to my setup. I always use Wix or NAPA filters, but in a pinch I've used Fram. I prefer Wix or NAPA, both made by Wix.

[1937 Dodge]

I run 5w30 of whatever is on sale in my newly rebuilt engine with a flull flow oil filter.

[Plymouthy Adams]

the zinc is more of a break in necssisity than other time from what I read..you need for the metal to metal to "surface match" under pressure rather than gall...it is even recommend to use dino-oil for the first 6000 before going to a symthetic blend..

[Tom Skinner]

NAPA non-detergent straight 30 wt.

specifically formulated for cars before 1975.

See your Owners Manual Straight Weights with no detergents were the norm.

On a Flathead 1948 Chrysler 20 Weight is sugested until "the miles are high"

then a 30 wt straight. I think an old Flathead cosidered anything above 50,000 miles kind of "high".

Tom