Rodney Bullock Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 I have adjusted and adjusted the steering box on the 40 Plymouth over and over I took shims out of the bottom and all. I can't seem to get the play out of the wheel. What is inside of the box? What stops the wheel from having play? how can I fix this without taking the box completely off? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desoto1939 Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Rodney: i the older cars there was always some play because back inthe early days of road building all of the roads had a high berm or crown so the radway sort of had an egg shape to them. The car manufacturer had to make some play in the wheel to compensate for this crown afect. The other problem that we face is that the roads of today are more flat and have very little slope so our older cars seem to wander down the road. Also our modern cars now have power steering and rack and pinion systems which make for a tighter feel onthe steering wheel. The only thing inthe box would be the steering sector and some oil. The sector could be worn Also did you ever have the steering wheel off the shaft. Sometimes when they could not get the alignment to be perfect and to have the wheel centered they would pullthe wheel and then center it back onthe shaft. When this was done the shaft is not in dead center on the sector so you can then get more play. These are just some thoughts on this topic. Rich desoto1939@aol.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 if all attemps to use the adjustment established by the manual to reach the desireable play (lack thereof) I would think it is time to get a new gear set..as mentioned here and I have read in other places but have never done nor even attempted is to rotate the parts so to get the two worn areas away from each other..this will give you good road feel when going straight but somewhere along the line in turning the car left of right be prepared for a bit of slop..I did not follow it close on the AACA website but a guy had done this very trick on one of his cars with great success.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg g Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Rodney check the frame to steering box mount. I believe there are some rubber isolaters between the box and the frame or around the bolts holding the box to the frame. I f these are worn or missing, the box can move against the frame quite a bit before it effects the steering pieces. The pitman arm also has some rubber that can get pretty sloppy over time and allow a lot of movement before it effects the steering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old woolie Posted June 26, 2009 Report Share Posted June 26, 2009 if all attemps to use the adjustment established by the manual to reach the desireable play (lack thereof) I would think it is time to get a new gear set..as mentioned here and I have read in other places but have never done nor even attempted is to rotate the parts so to get the two worn areas away from each other..this will give you good road feel when going straight but somewhere along the line in turning the car left of right be prepared for a bit of slop..I did not follow it close on the AACA website but a guy had done this very trick on one of his cars with great success.. This is a much better response than I had in mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertKB Posted June 26, 2009 Report Share Posted June 26, 2009 As mentioned, these old girls had some play in the steering wheel right from day one. With the car stationary, you will have at least two inches of play even in a rebuilt system. We are just used to our new cars and think we have a problem when there is play in the wheel of our oldies. Unless you have 3-4 inches of play or more, I would leave well enough alone. My thoughts for what they are worth and they may not be worth much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grey beard Posted June 27, 2009 Report Share Posted June 27, 2009 Sorry gents, but I completely disagree with you on this thread. Now please remember that I'm just a dumb truck guy from the other side, but I have overhauled and adjusted many steering boxes over time, and please trust me when I say that two or more inches of play at the steering wheel is neeither necessary nor acceptable. I have less than half an inch of play in the wheel of my 1948 Pilothouse. Cars should be every bit as critical when adjusted. Here's what's inside: the two gears - worm gear hooked to your steering wheel and the sector shaft - hooked to your steering linkage. There is a bearing on top of the box where the worm shaft exits to the steering wheel. The sector shaft has a bushing inside the lower part of the box where the shaft exits downward to the linkage. If this bushing is worn, you will have play. If you have had the borttom off and subtracted shims, maybe you didn't take enough out. There should be absolutely zero play up and down - laterally - in the worm shaft or steering wheel. If you have your wheels turned straight ahead, there should be no up and down play in your steering wheel when you pull and push on it. If any exists, remove more shims till it is all gone. If you pull all the shims out and still have play, the box or the worm gear are worn out. Once you have zero lateral play in the worm shaft, adjust the lash setting with the big screw-in bolt on top. This meshes the two gears - worm and sector - together for a tight fit. The only ticklish part of this adjustment is the fact that there is a high spot on the gears when they are dead center with each other. Please believe me when I say you cannot move one gear to a different spot to get less wear. Both gears turn their entire travel when you turn your wheels lock to lock - left to right. Try this: Jack up the front end and turn the steering wheel against the left stop. Now count the turns and turn it against the right stop. Now turn the wheel back to center, counting the turns again and going exactly half way. For examople, if you have seven full turns lock to lock, turn the wheel back exactly three and a half turns. At this point, your steering box is centered with the worm gear and pinion. What's that you say, your wheels aren't straight ahead now that the box is centered? Well, you just found your steering box play problem. Someone over the years adjusted the toe-in - likely it was done many times over time - and got the box off center. What you must now do is lock the steering wheel in this box-centered position and turn the tie rod adjusters so that the wheels are also straight ahead with the box in the centered position. The high spot in the center of the gears is to help the wheel return to center after you make a turn and let go of the wheel - has nothing to do with the crown in the road or what your mother-in-law fed you for breakfast. Get the box centered, and then center the wheels. If it's off a whole lot, you may want to resort to (gulp) paying for a front end alignment where you would tell the giy to first center the box and then the wheels. With both the box and the wheels centered, now is the perfect time to adjust that mesh load screw on top of the box. Get it snug and go for a road test. If you have it too tight, it will not return to center after a turn completely. If it feels tight across the center area, back it off a quarter turn and check it again. Do these things and you will have zero play in your steering. If you still have slop over the center area, your box is just plumb tuckered - time to hunt another one that's tighter. Good luck 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertKB Posted June 27, 2009 Report Share Posted June 27, 2009 We have just been schooled by grey beard. I for one thought there would naturally be some play but the way he presented it so clearly, it makes sense that there should be very little. Your explanation was great and I am going to try it out on my '53 Plymouth which has the most play. Thanks again for the information. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Californian Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 Hey Rodney, Just to add to what Greybeard went through, If you get to the point of rebuilding the steering gear take a look at the worm gear cone faces that the bearings seat on, Its been my experiance that the cone surfaces are often pitted and a new worm gear is needed... The sectors used to be sold after-market.. A lot of these Mopar - Ross & Gamer worms are the same a numer of years for different mobel Mopars and are pressed on to different legnth steering shafts . I know I had a nos worm and shaft tagged for a Chry and pressed the worm off and pressed it on the the shaft for my 48 Ply. Tom (09) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nates1947 Posted July 8, 2013 Report Share Posted July 8, 2013 Sorry to bring up old stuff...but I didn't want to start a new thread for no reason...when this one looks to cover a lot of ground already! My 47 box has the cap over the mesh load screw, and I'm wondering how to remove this cap. I was reading a thread on here earlier and it sounded like it had to be pretty much destructed to get it off? If thats the case where do I get a new one? Thanks for the help in advance! -Nate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_shel_ny Posted July 8, 2013 Report Share Posted July 8, 2013 If the cap looks like this, it is actually a nut. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nates1947 Posted July 8, 2013 Report Share Posted July 8, 2013 Yep thats it! I'm assuming its a reverse thread, which would explain why I couldn't get it off? or is it just that damn tight? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_shel_ny Posted July 8, 2013 Report Share Posted July 8, 2013 Yep thats it! I'm assuming its a reverse thread, which would explain why I couldn't get it off? or is it just that damn tight? Reg lefty loosie thread. Not sure if those star tabs flip up as a locking device. mine was not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andydodge Posted July 8, 2013 Report Share Posted July 8, 2013 Rebuilding the steering box would be a fairly straightforward thing for you guys in the US.....lol.....at least you can get the LHD sector shafts/pitman shaft.......seriously tho' these do turn up on ebay and are not that expensive..........but the 1940 to 48(maybe up to 54) steering boxes do have a pair of triangular shaped rubber isolators that go between the steering box and frame and outside of the frame and are generally oil soaked and mushy so replacing them should be high on the list, also replace all 4 tierod ends and you should go a long way towards fixing the steering , however rebuilding the steering box with a new sector shaft, bushes and lower oil seal is worh doing........or even topping up the steering box with steering box oil...NOT grease........andyd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Fred Posted July 9, 2013 Report Share Posted July 9, 2013 Thanks for sharing, Mr. Greybeard! Since my steering wheel is about 1/8 of a turn off i guess i should jack up the car and check. And yes, i do have some play. But to be honest i think the box is shot anyway because there's always oil oozing out of the box at the bottom which makes me think the bushing is gone... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wings515 Posted August 3, 2013 Report Share Posted August 3, 2013 I have been "working" on a Gremer box for about a month. As a last resort, how do you remove the shaft from the box. I see there are two cone roller bearings at the top and bottom. Do you have to remove the end cap where the horn wire exits and then press the shaft out? Or is there a much easier way? On a previous post I was considering welding a reducer coupling but if I can completely remove the shaft and worm gear I can swap the complete assembly. I was just reluctant to try and force the shaft out of the box. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andydodge Posted August 4, 2013 Report Share Posted August 4, 2013 Fred, the oil is oozing out because the leather seal is shot, they are a standard size so you should be able to find a nice new neoprene one from a bearing/seal company to fit in there..the only hiccup is that the bushings in the steering box case that the pitman shaft goes thru could be worn which allows the pitman shaft to wobble and cause extra wear in the leather seal referred to previously........but the seal replacement would be a big help...........andyd. Wings...to remove the steering shaft you need to remove the pitman arm first as it has the rollers that fit between the worm on the shaft..........once the pitman shaft is out then remove the end cap(4 bolts from memory) and the steering shaft should just come out.........btw this all presupposes that the box is out of the car with the steering wheel and associated linkages removed......andyd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbbbbb99 Posted August 14, 2013 Report Share Posted August 14, 2013 You have a PM 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Hiebert Posted August 14, 2013 Report Share Posted August 14, 2013 Rodney - did you get this figured out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chester Brzostowski Posted August 16, 2013 Report Share Posted August 16, 2013 Two weekends past I had new 215/75 R15 installed on my 48 and had the wheels professionally aligned. The tech that did the alignment said that he set it up to the specs from my 48 Plymouth service manual. After the alignment the car wandered and there has always been play in the steering wheel. I followed Gray Beard's advise, checked the service manual, and did the adjustments. Man what a difference. No wonder, No play in the steering wheel, Car drives straight and true, Thanks, a great post. Chet... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodney Bullock Posted August 17, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 17, 2013 Rodney - did you get this figured out? I kinda did, My problem then was the adjustment nut was loose. I tightened it and the problem went away. I still need a steering box rebuild. I have been working on other projects so I have not been driving the Plymouth. Boy the summer went so fast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chester Brzostowski Posted August 17, 2013 Report Share Posted August 17, 2013 I kinda did, My problem then was the adjustment nut was loose. I tightened it and the problem went away. I still need a steering box rebuild. I have been working on other projects so I have not been driving the Plymouth. Boy the summer went so fast. Rodney, The key in my case was finding the center point in the steering. It was about a an eight of a turn to the right. It was a this point where I had the most play. Adjusting it at the center point really did the trick for me. The screw adjusted further in at that point. Since the wheels were just aligned and the steering was dead center I didn't screw around with it any further. I am a firm believer in the saying "if it ain't broke don't fix it" Chet... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctor dirt Posted August 24, 2013 Report Share Posted August 24, 2013 Thought I'd keep my questions on the gear box here to go with the other steering box questions. Is there a seal or gasket needed to reseal the box? What lube weight should be used inside the box? thanx Doc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lheadandy Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 I just rebuilt a ford steering box out of a 1948 to51`F1. While looking at it I decided to compare it to a 46, 47 dodge box. The shaft diameter, thw worm and the gear on the sector shaft are identical to the ford! The sector shaft itself is larger in diameter on the dodge, so the bushings in the steering box are not the same, but the bearings on the worm gear top and bottom are the same also. I was able to assemble the old ford worm and bearings into nthe dodge housing and it worked! The reason why I was rebuilding the ford steering box was because of a sloppy bit right in the middle, the bit where you want to be mopst of the time i.e dead ahead. the problem was it had been adjusted all the way out through the years, The worm looked alright but the gear on the sector shaft had what looked like a small crater on the thrust face of one of the flutes. That was the dead ahead spot I changed the worm, bearings and cups and the gear on the sector shaft because I had already bought them ( $200) and I wouldnt have been able to change the sector gear if I hadnt of had a bridgeport, thats the hard part. Adjustment is easy enough but when you get to the end of it youll have to take it apart. Getting it out of the car is a bitch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wings515 Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 After spending numerous hours with my 39 steering box and a new sector shaft it still had all kinds of play. Finally went through the instructions again and the major adjustment that "fixed" the play was the eccentric screw at the base of the box. After determining the center of rotation, if you move the wheel about 1/4 turn and note the slop then move back 1/2 turn and again note the slop, adjusting the screw will center the slop. Then adjust the eccentric bolt at the upper corner to remove the slop when the wheel is at center. I've got mine down to a very small amount of slop. I will say, the wheel ended up slightly off center. I don't see how to adjust the steering wheel to be straight up and down since the drag link is not adjustable. I'm happy with the slop and can live with the offset wheel. It can be done but it takes a lot of time and patience. Do all these adjustments with the drag link disconnected from the steering arm. Regards, Dan K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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