James_Douglas

I would have to go digging in my notes as it was 15 years ago. But, as I remember these were not the same for some reason. James OK, So I pulled my notes. They have a used one, but it is used, they have no new ones. If you look down that list they do not have much is the way of NOS/NORS hard parts. What happens is the large outer ring that looks like a very big snap ring digs into the balking ring and creates a groove. Now this part works by friction. Too much and it does not shift right or at all and too loose and it does not shift right or at all. The problem is that there is no way to measure the friction on the bench. One could take a used one and have it hard chromed to fill the wear, but this is not possible for the big outer ring. You would also have to worry about the surface roughness as if it is not the same as the factory then you end up with the same problem. I looked at all the options before I spent $400 for a NOS balking ring from Frank after it was apparent that the one in the unit I purchased from George was junk. My point is that there are a few key parts in these units that are VERY hard to get and unless they are near perfect you run the risk of having a unit that either does not work quite right or will not last for years. Now, if it is a weekend toy probably not an issue. if you are going to drive it 100K over 10 years it will be sooner or later be a problem if these parts are not in great shape when it was installed. James

Thank you, I have had that chart for 15 years or so. But, if you read my comments you can see that the issue is studs versus bolts and no wiggle room to move the flanges in to account for studs. A rear end swap will do nothing to solve that problem. James

Marc, Something is not right. I just checked my Hollander Interchange Book and it shows 1938 to 1950 Desoto ALL interchange. Are your springs new? If not, then what is happening is that your suspension is hanging down lower as the spring are worn. That makes one think that the expanded length is longer than what was designed by the factory. Since the roll up 1954 Master Parts Book shows that they are the same and Hollander show they are the same and my actual factory original shocks lengths are documented. I would just use what I did. James

The largest issue with these is the balking ring set. If worn they never work quite correct or start acting up in due course. I purchased the last NOS one Frank Mitchell had some 15 years ago and it cost a lot. Go see my very old posts for the issues around my "rebuilt" OD. I have not seen a NOS balking ring set since and I have been looking as I have a spare I need to rebuild. The sun gears are also VERY hard to find and it the unit was ever run with low oil these are junk. So, unless it came out of a car that is running and you can hear it, I would not pay more than $500 for a unit or a seller has to warrant that the sun gear and balking ring is usable or take the unit back with a full refund. Anyone who pays more than $500 is playing Russian roulette with their money. James

I forgot...when #6 is up take a length of rubber hose and blow into both #6 then # one to make sure #1 is on the compression stroke... All these things we do without thinking about it after all these years...means we forget steps to tell others who don't have those experiences...

At some point someone may have pulled the dizzy out and put it back in wrong. Do a "clean" timing set up. Pull the plug out of #6, not the spark plug but the little plug in the head. Then stick a brass rod down in there (take all the spark plugs out) and turn the engine over with the fan (one hand on the belt to tighten it) and rotate the engine until # 6 is at the top of its travel. {I digress, if you have the tool to screw into the plug and use a dial indicator that is even better} Check to see that the indicator is at TDC while the brass rod is at the top of it travel. Then put in the distributor. and make sure that the rotor is pointing to #1 plug wire in the cap. Then pull the brass rod and put the plug in. Then put in the spark plugs and try it. James PS. I have the Autolite book and can confirm that you have the correct distributor. Just post it and I will look it up.

I guess it all depends on what your car comes in at weight wise. My car is like 4500 to 5000 most of the time. Divide that by 120 HP on a good day and... With the BW overdrive I am hopeful that the 4.3 will be ok to live with. The 3.91 has been great in town as I can run in second gear and second OD all day. No shifting in town. But on the larger hills pulling up a grade it struggles. I either need about 30 more HP or numerically higher gears for long grades. I will take some good notes on the ring and pinion work and post it at some point down the line. James

The 1954 roll up 5 inch thick Master Parts Book shows the same shock part number for all Desoto Six Cylinders from 1938 to 1950. Of course it does lie sometimes. The 1948 listing for Suburban Sedan may have been for heavy duty as the car is heavy. Of course heavy duty in those days was nothing compared to what it is now shock wise. Take the extended and collapsed measurements from your existing shocks and check them against my measurements. If they are the same or close I would use the ones listed. James

I have the Miller Tool for setting the pinion without the need to press on and press off the bearing to get the shims correct. Makes it possible to do it at home and not pay my rear-end shop for it... One has to take their time and follow the steps. I rebuild the 3-speed and BW-OD and have run it for 50K plus miles without issue, again taking ones time and following all the steps. James

Ok, I found my notes : Somewhat definitive shock information (46-48) Hi All, I replaced my shocks on the 1947 Desoto Suburban (LWB). This car had a build date of Late December 1946. I was surprised when I took the shocks off to realize that the are the original shocks. The front MOPAR part number checks with my part book, the rear does not. However, they have the same undercoating on them that matched the rest of the car. It has a single coat of original factory or dealer applied water base coating. I am convinced that these are the factory shocks. So for your record keeping pleasure: ****************************************** Front Shocks: Collapsed Length: 8.75 Inches Expanded Length: 13.0 Inches Part Numbering from top to bottom as on shock: 12B6 1F8-F0 Made In Monroe Patent No.2.004.380 & No. 2.078.364 PcPd 1121207 Rear Shocks: Collapsed Length: 12.5 Inches Expanded Length: 20.0 Inches Part Numbering from top to bottom as on shock: 12B6 1F8-F1 Made In Monroe Patent No.2.004.380 & No. 2.078.364 PcPd 1121208 I used these for years, then changed later on to below: New Fronts NAPA = 5752ST (Box had LE 10002) New Rears NAPA 94008 ************* Posted December 3, 2016 This week I have been moving parts around. I found the box that had the shocks I took off the 1947 Desoto Suburban when I first purchased it and the 1949 Desoto Convertible when I took it apart. I cleaned them all well and below is what I found. The shocks are MOPAR with the CDPD stamp on them and factory part numbers. They are Monroe shocks. 1947 Desoto S-11 Suburban: Front 1121207, closed 8.75", open 12.875," Dia max 2.125" Rear 1121208, closed 12.5", open 20.5", Dia max 2.125" 1949 Desoto S-13 Convertible Front 1311851, closed 8.75", open 13", Dia Max 2.125" Rear 1311852, closed 12.5", open 20.5", Dia Max 2.125 Interestingly the Monroe cross reference on the 1947 Desoto shows a front part number of 5752. On Amazon or Jeg's they are about $22 each. At NAPA or O'Reilly they show up as from Rare Parts at $200! What a joke... I may have a custom set made for the big Desoto. The shock valves were different according to the master parts book for the heavy Suburban. Custom adjustable shocks may be better for this daily driver than another set of modern Monroe's. The 1947 Shocks are know to be original to the car. The 1949 I suspect may have been changed once. 2021 update. I am currently using the following on the 1947 Desoto: Front Shock 1947 Desoto: NAPA NS5752 (UPC:48598041609) {monroe} Oreilly 5752 (UPC:48598041609) (monroe} Rear Shock 1947 Desoto: Napa RR94008 {monroe} Oreilly 3100 (UPC:48598024008) {Monroe} Oreilly KG5473 (UPC:781552054733) {KYB} Best all, James

Just be happy you do not have the Desoto-Chrysler two wire sending units and gauges!

I checked with VPW's and they do not have it. The big reason I did not have a custom 9 inch Ford made was that there is not enough room to move the flanges in so that the wheels/tires can clear studs. None of the axle makers make a flange deep enough for lug bolts. The fender skirts hang down so low that you can JUST get the tire out by jacking the car up by the rear axle. Any taller tires or the use of studs requires jacking the car up by the body and allowing the rear-end to hang down to get it out. My friend has the same problem on his 1946 T7C Convertible. On the side of the road I really don't want to have to pull the bumper jack out and pull this 5000 pound beast that far in the air. Nor have AAA trying to do it for me. I want to be able to jack the rear-end up and change the tire. We will see if the 4.3 will work and then if it does I will see how it drives...If it is usable for the time being, I can then keep my eye open for another 3.91 or 4.11 set. James

On the big Desoto I took the thermostat housing and drilled and tapped the side and stuck in one of those little moon thermometers. That way I can always cross check it against the dash gauge. Simple, effective and less than $100 for cheap insurance as to engine temp. James

Who made it?

Hi All, I have checked with everyone mentioned here and then some. The big deal is that the larger cars used the ring gear that uses 12 bolts where all the other cars used one that is 10 bolts. That is the quick way to tell the difference. I have a lead on a couple of Limo's in a yard that may have one. Waiting to hear back. Also, I just purchased a set of gears that MAY work. They are a 4.3 to 1 ratio. I was looking for 4.11. I have the NOS 4.5 set but I am loath to use it as if it came out of OD at 60 the engine would be close to redline. The 4.3 set should be here in about a week and I will see if they look like they will fit. I found the part number for the 4.3 set in an odd way. The big 1946 to 1954 MOPAR Master Parts book does not show it. The 1946 to 1948 Chrysler Master Parts Book does not show it. But the early year production 1946 only Chrysler Master Parts Book shows it and does not show any 4.11 gears. I think they were using left over 1942 production parts. I checked the case, spider and all the other parts and the part numbers are the same as the later 4.11 gear listings. We shall see in a week if the $200 for the set pays off or not. Industrial Archaeology is so much fun. James

Its hard to see in the photo, but in person it is clear it is a crack. This diff is the one where a ring gear bolt came out and part of it got into the groove and was hammered between the ring and pinion. It mad quite a thump thump going down the road. I was surprised that the ring and pinion looked fine when I took it apart apart from the decades of pitting from sitting at some point. I now know that the it took more of a hit than I thought...

Usually around 55 to 60 and that is it on Waldo... Today went from bad to worse on the rearend front... Turns out that the ring gear carrier's are different. That is the unit that the ring gear bolts to. For 3.36 and 3.54 it uses one part number while the 3.73, 3.91, and 4.11 use another. So, my "spare" which is a 3.36 does me no good. I just blasted and cleaned my old 4.11 and has a crack in it! So now I will have to pull the 3.91 out of the car that is making noise and that MY daily driver. The old 4.11 case is now junk. When I put them down next to each other the mounting flanges for the ring gears are in different positions. When I measured the 3.36 ring gear and then the 4.11 ring gear for overall thickness one can see why they use a different case. They are not even close to the same thickness. So much darn fun. I need a drink. James

Greg, What are you going to do with all the old combine parts...I have been thinking of making a stationary engine with belts for a couple of things... James

Assuming money is no object... Since we know that the last Chrysler had the 265 engine. This had the 4.75 stroke. This required a special rod with special bolts to clear the block. I see no reason why you could not have one of the rod makers create a set for you. Of course you would have to send a crankshaft out for stroking to 4.75. This is all assuming it will clear the block on the 23 inch blocks. Everything else would be typical high performance stuff... James

Shorter tires means wider tires...without power steering here in SF parking is PITA with anything wider... It looks like Desoto started to use 3.91 in these cars and quickly switched about six months into production to 4.11... I may just build a 4.55 since I have all the stuff to do so and see how it feels. The other option is to have a custom set made but that is in the $3K to $4K range! I do think that a 4.0 to 1 ratio would be perfect for this car with its weight to power ratio. But they never made one. I know the Hudson's of the 1940's used a 4.55 in their cars that they shipped from the factory with BW-OD. James

I really do not want to have to replace the rear end in the big Desoto with something else. But, the ring and pinion is becoming a PITA. The DeSoto Suburbans share the large chassis of the Big Chrysler 8. If it only had the eight! The issue is that I have called and called everyone that has parts and nobody has a set of NOS ring and pinion gears. My 4.11 set is way to pitted to reuse. I have a NOS set of 4.55 gears. But this may be way too much. Keep in mind that with the 3.91 gears in the car right now it is straining to make it up a big hill or mountain. I almost have to drop from their gear (on-OD) to Second. For those of you that know the SF Bay Area, on the way home to SF I am in 3rd non-OD at full throttle to make it up Waldo Grade to the bridge. Attached is an screen shot of an excel spreadsheet of my trans and the the gears 3.91, 4.11 and 4.55. Until I pull the unit I have no idea as to what the shape of the 3.91 is, but it is howling like a sick dog. It could be just a bad bearing, but I doubt it. I would like peoples thoughts after looking at my spreadsheet as to QUALITY of driving with the NOS 4.55 gears in a car as big and heavy as the Suburban with the overdrive. I added a line for second gear overdrive for city driving at 35. I am thinking it may be a little much as the OD governor does not kick in now until about 25 MPH. Thanks, James

I know that several of the preimenate Ford Flathead re-builders around the USA are taking stock valve guides and lining them with bronze and adding stem seals to them. They then can run tighter tolerances as the silicon bronze allows for that. Tens of thousands of miles later no issues with the guides and less oil being sucked. The question is, that is significantly different, if anything, between the flathead V8 ford guide design and the MOPAR flatheads? James

I am looking into custom silicon bronze valve guides for my next flathead rebuild. I am thinking of valve seals on the intake side. James

My Car uses the 1940's 8-3/4 inch Dana rear-end. It was used in the limo's and the larger of the Chrysler 8's. The problem is that the ring and pinion sets for these are no place to be found. I have been beating the bushes for months with no luck. I do not want to tear it out and replace it if I can help it. I ran across a set of 4.55 gears. I want to talk with someone who is running these gears with a three speed to get a qualitative sense of how they drive. I have a fluid coupling and a three speed with OD. Yesterday I had a talk with someone in the Hudson Club. The late 1940's Hudson's that had overdrive were shipped with 4.55 rear-ends. I may consider that as my 3.91 and 4.11 ring and pinion sets are not in great shape. The Desoto Suburban is also quite heavy in road trip curb weight it is about 4500 pounds or more. The flathead six does struggle on highways hills. Big mountains is especially tough. I drive the car every day in city traffic and I suspect such a numerically high ratio may would be a PITA on city streets. Right now with the 3.91 gears I can drive all day in town with second gear and second OD. I am assuming, perhaps incorrectly, that some of the truck folks have trucks with the 4.55 gears and a three speed. James

Hi Folks, James from over in the car forum. I wanted to ask if anyone here has a 4.55 rear and is running the 3 speed stick. I would appreciate you driving impressions with this combination. Thanks, James