New B-3-B owner with some basic questions

[Los_Control]

As a side note, you can check stretch by removing your distributor cap and rotate the crank back and forth.

You want to see how much free play you have in the crank before the cam moves .. which moves the distributor rotor.

 

Just a quick and dirty test when troubleshooting timing issues without tearing into the engine.

[ktb]

Thank you Los!  I measured my slack to be ~3/8”, which is okay, I guess. I will have to consider replacing the chain and sprockets while I’m in here. 
 

The cam hub moved freely once I removed the cam sprocket, so I guess it has been the piston rings keeping the crank from budging all this time. 

Unless there are other suggestions, the next phase in trying to rotate the crank will be trying to free the pistons by removing rod bearing caps and pushing up from the bottom. 
 

In the meantime I have a lot of stuff to clean up and reassemble. 
 

Thank you all!

[bkahler]

I don't know how true it is but, I was always told to replace the sprockets and chains as a set. 

[Los_Control]

13 minutes ago, bkahler said:

I don't know how true it is but, I was always told to replace the sprockets and chains as a set. 

To be honest .... seems we always call it "the timing chain" When it is really a timing chain set.

Not even sure it is possible to buy a new chain without the gears being included. Maybe, just never heard of it.

 

31 minutes ago, ktb said:

Unless there are other suggestions, the next phase in trying to rotate the crank will be trying to free the pistons by removing rod bearing caps and pushing up from the bottom. 

I would remove all of the rod bearing caps and set them aside being careful to keep them in order so can be replaced where they came from .... then see that the crank turns. ... If not then start checking the main bearings.

Then start moving the pistons by hand up and down. .... You should know very quickly if and how many pistons or a main bearing.

 

I had one main bearing that locked it up from some mouse pee ... anything can have happened over the years of sitting.

 

I would put some rubber hose over the rod bolts so they do not mark up the crank while working on it ... or some tape, anything for protection to save the polished crank surface.

 

If you find a piston froze to the cylinder wall ... use a block of wood 2"x4" ripped down to fit. Then use a hammer and wood to tap them down. just to free them up. If it is a piston, now is the time to pull them out and install new rings and clean up the cylinder bores.

 

Hopefully if it is pistons, a few sharp blows with the hammer/wood will free them up.

Your cylinders do not look too bad and should not be a big problem getting the pistons free.

[bkahler]

48 minutes ago, Los_Control said:

To be honest .... seems we always call it "the timing chain" When it is really a timing chain set.

Not even sure it is possible to buy a new chain without the gears being included. Maybe, just never heard of it.

 

 

For some makes/brand you can.  For my Triumph sports cars you can order individual parts.  I never do, but I know you can.

[Los_Control]

5 minutes ago, bkahler said:

For some makes/brand you can.  For my Triumph sports cars you can order individual parts.  I never do, but I know you can.

Have to admit I never gave it much thought.

A motorcycle chain is the same way ... replace the sprockets if you feel like it.

 

Looking at RockAuto for my 1949, they have a crank gear but no cam or chain available .... dunno where we go when we need one ... I would check Napa first.

 

On RA they also sell chains separately for a 1970 318, or in sets. So you can buy just the chain.

The cheapest timing set for the 318 is $10.16  all the way up to $105 for a billet roller version.

 

@ktb is measuring 3/8" play, I would not bother replacing it myself at this point ... If rebuilding the engine then yes.

[bkahler]

36 minutes ago, Los_Control said:

@ktb is measuring 3/8" play, I would not bother replacing it myself at this point ... If rebuilding the engine then yes.

 

Unless the gears so appreciable wear, I agree.

[Young Ed]

I would suggest trying to turn it via the flywheel. There is a tool for doing that but I've always just used a decent pry bar. You get a lot more leverage using the teeth on the flywheel and only have to remove the inspection cover to gain access 

[ktb]

Freeing stuck pistons...

 

Today I removed all the rod caps (again) and the front and rear main bearings (leaving the middle two to support the crank).  I tried hammering a wooden dowel on top of each piston and pushing up from the bottom on a couple I could get to.  Nothing will budge.  So I'm back to soaking the tops of each piston with a diesel/ATF mixture.  I tried a prybar on the ring gear long ago, but no crank movement.

 

Is it advisable to try pushing up on the underside of a piston with a wooden dowel using a hydraulic jack?  

 

Also, is it okay to continue trying to turn the crank with no rod caps in place?

[John-T-53]

Remove the engine from the truck, place on a stand, remove crank, valves, cam. Pound out pistons from the top with mallet and block of wood. Clean up cylinders with hone, then measure them to determine if it needs to be bored out, which it probably does. 

[ktb]

I would happily remove the engine if I had the means.  I'll keep trying.

[JBNeal]

If that crankshaft is in a position where  pistons are near TDC or BDC, then the crankshaft might be fighting any attempts  to drive the pistons loose as the connecting rods have no mechanical advantage in the vertical position.  Getting the crankshaft out of the way removes this restriction, though that is easier said than done.

 

Another alternative to the MMO-style mix is DOT 3 brake fluid...itsa mess but it may make the magic happen

[ktb]

That's interesting, #3 & #4 are in fact very near the top.  Makes it so you can't get any appreciable amount of magical loosening fluid on top of those pistons.

 

Today I tried to hammer a wooden plunger handle under #3, but it went nowhere.  The handle got so stuck in there, I spent the next 5 hours trying to get all the pieces of it back out.  It was not a great day.

 

I may go ahead and try brake fluid.  What have I got to lose?

[Los_Control]

Seems like it would be possible to rotate the crank out of the way with all the rods loose?

 

7 hours ago, ktb said:

Today I tried to hammer a wooden plunger handle under #3,

To me that sounds like a really bad idea .... good way to destroy a piston.

You want to use a block of wood from the top. The wood needs to be wide enough to span across the piston and apply pressure to the sides of the piston equally. Probably need to measure and cut one to size.

Then use a 2 pound sledge hammer and knock em loose ....after you rotate the crank out of the way.

 

A wooden handle in the center of the piston top or bottom could easily just punch a hole through the piston .... you are counting on the sides of piston for strength.

Lets hope the brake fluid does the trick.

[John-T-53]

On 2/6/2025 at 10:23 AM, ktb said:

I would happily remove the engine if I had the means.  I'll keep trying.

 

You are doing it the hard way, I promise. 

[ktb]

30 minutes ago, John-T-53 said:

 

You are doing it the hard way, I promise. 

 

No doubt.  I've got more time than money.

[Bobacuda]

Any updates on your truck?

[ktb]

On 3/8/2025 at 11:25 PM, Bobacuda said:

Any updates on your truck?

 

Hi Bobacuda, thanks for checking in.  I have been sidetracked by weather and other projects recently.  No crank movement to report... yet.

 

I have added DOT 3 brake fluid to the tops of the cylinders a couple times now.  The last time I tried to turn the crank nut with a long cheater pipe, one or the other set of threads started shaving, so I'm not going to do that again.  As an aside, I have removed the doghouse to simplify access.  

 

As I get closer to deciding whether or not to purchase the necessary equipment to remove the engine and place it on a stand, a few questions come to mind.  Since I cannot move the crank and cannot access half of the bolts between the rear of the crank and front of the fluid drive coupler, how many other components would need to come out with the block?  Just fluid drive coupler, or everything in the bellhousing?  I assume the transmission can be removed first independently?  Is it even possible to put the engine on a stand with the additional component(s) hanging on to the rear of the block?  Would I have any better luck getting the crank to turn with all the rod bearing caps removed, or at least loosened?  I had intended to leave at least the middle two main bearing caps in place to support the crank, but I can swap to front and rear main caps, or whatever combination of main/rod bearing caps is advisable to leave in place to prevent causing damage.

 

It certainly is a handsome engine once cleaned up; one that I didn't imagine would give me this much trouble.  Perhaps the difficulty in turning the crank is due to the mechanical disadvantage of having pistons 3&4 stuck at the top of their range, as JBNeal suggested on Feb 6.  I have also tried turning the fluid drive coupler ring gear with a long prybar several times, to no effect.

 

Thanks again to everyone for their help!

 

On 2/6/2025 at 11:26 PM, JBNeal said:

If that crankshaft is in a position where  pistons are near TDC or BDC, then the crankshaft might be fighting any attempts  to drive the pistons loose as the connecting rods have no mechanical advantage in the vertical position.  Getting the crankshaft out of the way removes this restriction, though that is easier said than done.

 

Another alternative to the MMO-style mix is DOT 3 brake fluid...itsa mess but it may make the magic happen

[Bobacuda]

Trans comes out fairly easy. Remove shift linkages, the driveshaft, disconnect/remove e-brake (taking it off gives you more room to work).  4 bolts hold the trans to the bell housing. NOTE - the trans is heavy.  Have another healthy & strong person under there with you and don’t put any crushable or critical body parts between the trans and Mother Earth. A transmission Jack strapped to the trans can kee it from killing you. 
 

Since the doghouse is off you can pull it out the front, but the bell housing overhangs the crankshaft. You might have to pull the bell housing (and the pedals ) as one unit.  If I remember right, 4 bolts hold the engine to the bell housing. 
Out of the truck, you should have the room to unbolt the bell housing, separate it from the engine and lift it off. Good time to install new , rear motor mounts. 
 

Ii it was mine, I would my damndest to unbolt the fluid drive in the truck. It is also heavy as hell and the ring gear will eat you up, so be careful. 
 

When you get it out and put it on the engine stand, be aware that engine stands aren’t designed for the flathead 6 - the engine will be top heavy and flip a stand in a heartbeat. And it is move than capable of punishing you, any helper, or random engine parts. 
 

One last observation I’m sure you are learning - you will do damn little to your truck that costs less than $500.  It costs as much to rebuild the flathead as it costs to rebuild a small block Chevy…

 

And you haven’t started making your wiring harnesses yet 🙂. Good time to make them and get them installed. Make the behind the dash wires about 12” longer so you have more room to pull instruments and the few dash lights. Note where each wire goes to the wiper switch, then from the switch to the motor. 
 

Take LOTS of photos and notes. 

[Merle Coggins]

When I pulled my engine, in a similar condition, I removed the transmission along with the clutch and brake pedals. I was then able to pull the engine out with the bell housing attached. This is tricky as the steering column interferes with things a bit. But it'll come out. I then laid the block on it's side, on a solid bench and removed the crankshaft out the bottom with the Fluid Drive attached. I could then access all of the FD nuts to separate the FD and Crank. Then a lot of cleaning with wire wheels and flapper sanding drums, and a lot of penetrating oil. I was finally able to drive all of the pistons out with a BFH and a block of wood. Then I focused on the valves. I gripped the cam sprocket with a large channel lock pliers and rotated it back and forth, a little at a time, until all of the valves were stuck open. I could then tip the block upside down and slide the came out, followed by the tappets. I then hammered the valves back closed to remove the keepers and springs. Then, with the aid of a long punch, I drove the valves up and out of the block. Then I hauled it all to a machine shop where they bored it, decked the block and milled the head, replaced the valve guides and seats, as they were also trashed. They provided the pistons and rings when I picked it all up. I then reassembled it and it's been a solid engine ever since.