Need Help!!!!!. 41’ Dodge

[Sniper]

My 51's compression numbers looked like that when I got it, it ran then and still runs.  I should probably run them again and see if they improved. 

 

I do wonder about the drop in numbers when doing the wet test, never seen that before.

[shane_thompson]

2 hours ago, Sniper said:

My 51's compression numbers looked like that when I got it, it ran then and still runs.  I should probably run them again and see if they improved. 

 

I do wonder about the drop in numbers when doing the wet test, never seen that before.

Drop in numbers means stuck valves. Similar numbers means the pistons or rings are warped/worn

[keithb7]

Battery lost its oomph at the second round of compression testing? Less rotating speed?

[Sniper]

1 hour ago, shane_thompson said:

Drop in numbers means stuck valves. Similar numbers means the pistons or rings are warped/worn

 

I am skeptical here.  Stuck valves would not change compression readings substantively.  Typically, ring issues show compression numbers increasing as the oil temporarily seals them.

 

https://dannysengineportal.com/compression-test-how-to-do-it-what-can-it-tell-you/

 

[Los_Control]

From what I read, everything does sound ok ... compression is not the best but good enough to start wet or dry numbers.

 

I am jumping on the bus with the others that are claiming timing. This bit me the first start on my engine also.

 

If the engine has ever been apart in the past, depends on if the previous mechanic followed procedure to where your timing is.

 

My point is, If you follow the manual exactly when installing the oil pump. #1 is at the 7 o'clock position on the distributor.

It is just as easy to get the oil pump 1 tooth off as installing a distributor 1 tooth off. My #1 wire is at 6 O'clock.

So if the oil pump is installed 1 tooth off, the slotted distributor is now off and need to adjust the wires on the cap to correct.

Suppose the mechanic did not care, just installed the oil pump willy nilly. Now the #1 wire could be any location on the distributor cap. Thats fine it will run with no issues this way.

 

You really can't skimp on this step. I pull the timing plug on #6 cyl, make sure it is not plugged with carbon. Lay a tiny piece of toilette paper over it. Turn engine over by hand, when the paper moves ... the piston is coming up on compression stroke. Take a long wire inserted in the timing plug & rotate engine to determine where piston is at TDC.

Now look at your rotor in distributor, match the #6 plug wire on the cap to match the rotor. Install all the wires starting from #6 instead of #1.

 

You literally throw everything the manual says out the window. YOU determine where #6 is on compression stroke and set your wires from there.

 

[shane_thompson]

1 hour ago, Los_Control said:

From what I read, everything does sound ok ... compression is not the best but good enough to start wet or dry numbers.

 

I am jumping on the bus with the others that are claiming timing. This bit me the first start on my engine also.

 

If the engine has ever been apart in the past, depends on if the previous mechanic followed procedure to where your timing is.

 

My point is, If you follow the manual exactly when installing the oil pump. #1 is at the 7 o'clock position on the distributor.

It is just as easy to get the oil pump 1 tooth off as installing a distributor 1 tooth off. My #1 wire is at 6 O'clock.

So if the oil pump is installed 1 tooth off, the slotted distributor is now off and need to adjust the wires on the cap to correct.

Suppose the mechanic did not care, just installed the oil pump willy nilly. Now the #1 wire could be any location on the distributor cap. Thats fine it will run with no issues this way.

 

You really can't skimp on this step. I pull the timing plug on #6 cyl, make sure it is not plugged with carbon. Lay a tiny piece of toilette paper over it. Turn engine over by hand, when the paper moves ... the piston is coming up on compression stroke. Take a long wire inserted in the timing plug & rotate engine to determine where piston is at TDC.

Now look at your rotor in distributor, match the #6 plug wire on the cap to match the rotor. Install all the wires starting from #6 instead of #1.

 

You literally throw everything the manual says out the window. YOU determine where #6 is on compression stroke and set your wires from there.

 

The oil pump wasn’t installed willy nilly because the mechanic would know better not to do that. The block is 7 years younger than the truck. 
 

“Timing” was already verified when we:

1. #1 to TDC

2. distributor spark plugs in order of manual

3. condenser functions with bright spark

4. new spark plugs

5. manual says 2 degrees ATDC which the crank case measuring gear said around 2-4 degrees with #1 at TDC. 

 

We checked every spark plug, recharged the battery, checked all points for resistance, and even bought a new battery to be sure.

 
I have not replaced the cables, but they do not seem corroded on the outside points.

 

“Fuel” was verified as:

1. Manifold had a fine mist of fuel

2. vapor coming out tailpipe

4. spark plugs smelled like a gas/burning smell. 
 

the only other thing I can think of is that the battery cables need to be replaced along with the starter. But the starter runs fine. 
 

One thing I notice is the fuel pump does not feed fuel into the carb, so I have to pour fuel straight into the bowl, and it does the trick.

 

PS: I might as well refurbish the worn parts in the engine anyways, or myself or someone else will have to just do it a few years later if something catastrophic doesnt conclude the engine. 

[shane_thompson]

4 hours ago, keithb7 said:

Battery lost its oomph at the second round of compression testing? Less rotating speed?

I did a wet and dry test twice and the numbers came out the same.

 

i basically went wet and dry starting on #1, then wet and dry again after charging the battery starting from #6 this time. This way I thought I can really confidently verify the numbers are right.

 

from what I believe, I feel as battery power doesnt affect the compression numbers much, as it measures the air pressure inside the cylinder when it’s the top of it’s stroke, not how much force is applied to that stroke. 

Edited March 23, 2022 by shane_thompson

[shane_thompson]

1 hour ago, Los_Control said:

From what I read, everything does sound ok ... compression is not the best but good enough to start wet or dry numbers.

 

I am jumping on the bus with the others that are claiming timing. This bit me the first start on my engine also.

 

If the engine has ever been apart in the past, depends on if the previous mechanic followed procedure to where your timing is.

 

My point is, If you follow the manual exactly when installing the oil pump. #1 is at the 7 o'clock position on the distributor.

It is just as easy to get the oil pump 1 tooth off as installing a distributor 1 tooth off. My #1 wire is at 6 O'clock.

So if the oil pump is installed 1 tooth off, the slotted distributor is now off and need to adjust the wires on the cap to correct.

Suppose the mechanic did not care, just installed the oil pump willy nilly. Now the #1 wire could be any location on the distributor cap. Thats fine it will run with no issues this way.

 

You really can't skimp on this step. I pull the timing plug on #6 cyl, make sure it is not plugged with carbon. Lay a tiny piece of toilette paper over it. Turn engine over by hand, when the paper moves ... the piston is coming up on compression stroke. Take a long wire inserted in the timing plug & rotate engine to determine where piston is at TDC.

Now look at your rotor in distributor, match the #6 plug wire on the cap to match the rotor. Install all the wires starting from #6 instead of #1.

 

You literally throw everything the manual says out the window. YOU determine where #6 is on compression stroke and set your wires from there.

 

And I don’t have access to a hand crank, so I need to try it with a friend again

[Dartgame]

Shane - I dont know what your mechanical experience is like, but remember that with a flat tip distributor drive you can be 180 out regardless. Remember that TDC comes up twice on a 4 cycle engine...

[Los_Control]

3 hours ago, shane_thompson said:

Timing” was already verified when we:

1. #1 to TDC.

2. distributor spark plugs in order of manual

3. condenser functions with bright spark

4. new spark plugs

5. manual says 2 degrees ATDC which the crank case measuring gear said around 2-4 degrees with #1 at TDC. 

This all sounds great ... one thing forgotten on these engines is the oil pump.

If the previous mechanic did not properly set up the engine for TDC while installing the oil pump ... Then the manual gets thrown out the window.

 

It is also easy for a competent mechanic to install the oil pump one tooth off. Just like installing a distributor one tooth off.

 

I am saying that if the oil pump is installed not exactly perfect from the manual ... all the manual directions goes out the window.

This is a common issue with older rebuild engines etc ...

 

Pull the timing plug on #6 cyl, lay a tiny piece of toilette paper over it. Rotate the engine by hand. When the paper is disturbed it is coming up on compression stroke.

Use A wire to determine the exact TDC of the #6 piston.  ..... This is where the piston will fire from spark. Then check the rotor & distributor cap to insure that the rotor is pointing at #6 plug wire on the cap.

 

Just saying the manual says #1 should be at 7 0'clock position & mine is at 6 0'clock. Mechanic tried but missed it by one tooth.

If the mechanic did not care, the #1 position can be anywhere on the distributor cap.

 

1. #1 to TDC. sounds good ... does not prove the spark is going to the right cyl at the right time.

 

[shane_thompson]

6 minutes ago, Los_Control said:

This all sounds great ... one thing forgotten on these engines is the oil pump.

If the previous mechanic did not properly set up the engine for TDC while installing the oil pump ... Then the manual gets thrown out the window.

 

It is also easy for a competent mechanic to install the oil pump one tooth off. Just like installing a distributor one tooth off.

 

I am saying that if the oil pump is installed not exactly perfect from the manual ... all the manual directions goes out the window.

This is a common issue with older rebuild engines etc ...

 

Pull the timing plug on #6 cyl, lay a tiny piece of toilette paper over it. Rotate the engine by hand. When the paper is disturbed it is coming up on compression stroke.

Use A wire to determine the exact TDC of the #6 piston.  ..... This is where the piston will fire from spark. Then check the rotor & distributor cap to insure that the rotor is pointing at #6 plug wire on the cap.

 

Just saying the manual says #1 should be at 7 0'clock position & mine is at 6 0'clock. Mechanic tried but missed it by one tooth.

If the mechanic did not care, the #1 position can be anywhere on the distributor cap.

 

1. #1 to TDC. sounds good ... does not prove the spark is going to the right cyl at the right time.

 

So then how shall I reset the oil pump? And what must I do after it’s installed properly? How do I know it IS installed properly after all that too? 

[Sniper]

20 minutes ago, shane_thompson said:

So then how shall I reset the oil pump? And what must I do after it’s installed properly? How do I know it IS installed properly after all that too? 

 

It is in the service manual, you have one, right?

[Los_Control]

Again it is as simple as checking #6 cyl for TDC on compression stroke. Thats where you set your distributor wires.

 

As far as the oil pump goes, when you disassemble your engine & rebuild it ... just do a better job putting it together.

 

I am only saying #6 is the easiest cyl to get to TDC because of the timing plug above the piston.

 

Of course it may not be your issue. But it has a high chance of being it .... you need to eliminate this chance.

Seriously these engines do not care where the oil pump is installed. Just up to the user to install plug wires in correct position.

While I personally would like to install the oil pump correctly and install the wires as per the manual ... Not going to make your engine run any better or worse by doing so.

 

So again, use the timing plug, figure out where the compression stroke is and tdc on #6 cyl ... set your wires ... then decide what you want after it is running.

[shane_thompson]

1 hour ago, Los_Control said:

Again it is as simple as checking #6 cyl for TDC on compression stroke. Thats where you set your distributor wires.

 

As far as the oil pump goes, when you disassemble your engine & rebuild it ... just do a better job putting it together.

 

I am only saying #6 is the easiest cyl to get to TDC because of the timing plug above the piston.

 

Of course it may not be your issue. But it has a high chance of being it .... you need to eliminate this chance.

Seriously these engines do not care where the oil pump is installed. Just up to the user to install plug wires in correct position.

While I personally would like to install the oil pump correctly and install the wires as per the manual ... Not going to make your engine run any better or worse by doing so.

 

So again, use the timing plug, figure out where the compression stroke is and tdc on #6 cyl ... set your wires ... then decide what you want after it is running.

Ok I’ll report back. However, what’s wrong with doing this for #1 cyl like I did?

[Los_Control]

6 minutes ago, shane_thompson said:

Ok I’ll report back. However, what’s wrong with doing this for #1 cyl like I did?

The only difference is, you kinda need to use the #6 piston to get it on TDC. Once you determine compression stroke on#6 to determine TDC ....

Why bother to roll the engine over again to get #1 on TDC for #1?

 

You can be very accurate getting #6 on TDC compression stroke because the timing plug is on #6 cyl directly over the piston.

At this point #1 is also TDC on exhaust stroke.

Simply rolling the engine over 1 more time to bring #6 up on exhaust stroke makes #1 on compression stroke.

 

To me this is just a extra step and I am lazy and not worth my time.

Now if I had the engine disassembled, was installing the timing gears, oil pump, had the head off .... I would bring #1 up on TDC and work from there.

 

Since the timing plug over the piston is located on #6 cyl. We have to determine if #6 is on exhaust or compression to know what #1 is doing .... why not just use #6?

 

Honestly makes no difference ... if #6 is TDC compression stroke then #1 is TDC exhaust.  Just another step to bring #1 up on compression and I am lazy.

#6 works just as well as #1 for installing the plug wires.

 

 

[Los_Control]

I also hope your timing plug is not blocked by carbon.

Mine was ... I used a nail and gave it a tap and cleared the carbon plug right out of the hole.

 

When the engine started you could hear the little carbon plug bouncing around on top of the piston, then it got sucked into a exhaust valve and prevented the valve from closing for about 30 seconds, then it was sucked out and the engine ran smooth after that.

 

Just saying, if the timing hole is plugged with carbon ... pushing it through may not be the best choice.

While I feel I got lucky, I wonder if using a drill bit to break it up and drill through it may have been a better choice.

While I pulled a truck out of a field that had been sitting for 20 years ... I was not thinking about a small piece of carbon .... since my wife was standing there and listening to the carbon dance going through the valve ... she did wrinkle up her nose.

[allbizz49]

Where in California are you?

[shane_thompson]

49 minutes ago, allbizz49 said:

Where in California are you?

Camarillo

[allbizz49]

Well shoot, a little too far for me to swing by and help. Good luck, you'll get it lit 

[Wes Flippen]

If I was a betting man, I'd say your distributer is 180 degrees out. When this happens, you'll still get spark, just not at the correct time. Will drive you crazy, and an easy thing to do. Don't ask me how I know. ?

 

[keithb7]

I illustrate and talk about lining up the oil pump and rotor here:

 

 

[shane_thompson]

5 hours ago, Wes Flippen said:

If I was a betting man, I'd say your distributer is 180 degrees out. When this happens, you'll still get spark, just not at the correct time. Will drive you crazy, and an easy thing to do. Don't ask me how I know. ?

 

Yeah im trying this next time I see the truck

[shane_thompson]

3 hours ago, keithb7 said:

I illustrate and talk about lining up the oil pump and rotor here:

 

 

Thanks Keith. I’ll check this out

[T120]

6 hours ago, keithb7 said:

I illustrate and talk about lining up the oil pump and rotor here:

 

Good work, Keith. I enjoyed watching your video. ?